Regarding the equal angle guide placement system of Don's and the progressive angle system, also Don's. What is the difference? Not the angles, that is obvious, but the difference in purpose and function?

Thanks

One used line drawn at equal angle intervals the other varies the angle intervals. Progressive angle spacing will usually result in guide placement that is just that - much more progressive as you move down the rod. The equal angle approach also provides progressive spacing by virtue of how the flexed blank is applied to the chart, but not nearly so much as any sort of progressive angle spacing.

There is nothing magic about the terms or the method. Both have been around for years. Don has figured out a way to apply them to a simple chart which allows the user to plot guide placement, which also takes into account the action of each specific blank, in just minutes. Careful use of the system along with wise guide selection usually results in guide placement that is just as good as the time honored, but much more time consuming, static stress distribution test.

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Thanks Tom, but what I'm trying to figure out here, is when and what would I use the equal or progrssive angle system? How do I choose between the two?

Also the point of the axis, or center point of the angles. Would they be the same for the two systems for the same rod, or would the progressive angle have that lower down?

It all depends upon the particlular angles you choose, and the combinations are almost infinite.

Here is something you could do - take a rod and use the old standby static stress distribution test to fine tune a set-up that you consider nearly perfect for that particular rod. Now take that rod and flex it as per the instructions in the article and put it against your chart. Draw lines from each previously determined guide location, into the 0 mark on the chart. The angles they form are likely to be progressive in nature. You can now use those lines, and those angles, for future rods.

The main thing is to have a reference that you know is valid to begin with. In the article you will notice that Don mentions that you do not have to stick with 20 degree equal angle spacing. He advises trying different angles until you arrive at one that you are happy with.

The reverse set-up method I have given you will provide a nice starting place for you to experiment from.

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I was under the impression that equal angle would be more suitable for a slow to moderate rod flex while the progressive angle would be used for fast to extra fast. In other words the blank taper would indicate the system to employ.

Not really, the flex of each blank automatically creates a different ( and hopefully optimum) guide placement for the same set of angles. That is the beauty of the system. One set of lines/angles creates a multitude of guide placement set-ups depending upon the particular blank being used.

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Question to Tom Kirkman: Why is not Don answering these questions on the site. I feel like a parishoner that has to go to the Pope to talk to God? For me explainations are always better first hand rather than someone elses interpretation. Food for thought

Don came to me some months ago and asked me to consider working up an article on the system as he thought I could explain the method better than he could (his words, not mine).

The article also includes a "quick start" guide which I put together and that explains what is really a rather simple system in just a few short paragraphs. I left the remainder of the article pretty much as Don wrote it because we knew there would be questions which a more lengthy article might possibly help to answer on the go.

I am sure Don would be happy to answer your questions but I believe he is busy helping to set up the Guild conclave plans. The article had his email listed so you can contact him directly if you wish to do.

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Sorry to all. My ISP has had problems with the Rodmaking site and I have not been able to help you on these questions. Tom has been extremely helpful in answering your questions and has done a much better job than I could ever do. Thanks Tom.

I will try to help Tom answer some of your questions for a change. First equal angle is just as it says a division of a circle or ray into equal angles. When you flex a rod to 90 degrees and place it in front of the ray, the lines-angles divide the rod proportional based on it's flex. Progressive spacing usually adds additional divisions close to the tip. For example, If you wanted to use 6 guides in the tip section, down to the bend, you would use a 20 degree spacing or set up your plexiglass with angles of 20 degrees, 40 degrees, 60 degrees and so forth through 120 degrees. A progresive spacing would add one additional guide and might be 10 degrees, 23 degrees, 40 degrees and then 20 degree spacing through 120 degrees or 7 guides. This will place a guide very close to the tip. I won't go into the whole theory of the extra guides on the tip but try adding some extra guides on tip section and see if it changes the way the rod casts. Add only small light guides. Suggestion, tape #6 alconite, single foot fly guides on the first quarter of a fly rod followed by some #7's and a couple #8 and use a #10 single foot guide for the stripper and see how the rod casts. I was very surprised at the difference it made.

By the way this is a very big topic for discussion at the Conclave.

Maybe the ISP people will get me back on where I can help with your questions, Thanks.

What Don has here, is a system that is easy to show and explain in person, but not so very easy to put into words on a message board or email. We had both hoped that the lengthy magazine article would not put people off, but that they would take the time to read it and learn it. Once that is done, you can set-up a rod for really good guide placement in just a couple minutes. Consider the article the necessary investment that pays off in time saving dividends further down the road.

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What is the significance of 120 degrees ? Why couldn't you place a guide 4.5 inches from the tip measure that angle and then put the number of guides on that equals 120/measured angle ?
Three rod builders A,B,C have a 9' 6wgt St Croix. A decides on 9 guides, B decides on 10 guides, and C decides on 11 guides. The angles for each will be different thus the placement will be different. Who has the optimum guide placement and most efficient rod ? I think the answer is you won't know without test casting. So you need to tape up the guides go do your testing add guides, subtract guides, move guides around until you find the set up that optimizes performance and "feels" the best. Then come inside and use PGT to place the guides? What am I missing ?

So Tom: How do I get a copy of the article. I can feel it coming.......Sold Out. Right?

Thanks Tom, what your answer gives me an inkling of how to work it out. I guess we still have to use our experience to flex the blank and make a call - what sort of spacing we want to use, equal/progressive, how big the angles and the type of guides and work from there.

I just ordered some more back issues and got everyone I ordered. Sold out? It's the current issue and I can't imagine it would be sold out. Use the link to the left for Rodmaker.

For Shaun you have to go back to the first article in the series which Tom did on determining how many guides is optimum on any rod. Once you have that under your belt you have a pretty good idea of what number you need to go with. Then you pick up on Don's article and use the lines that correspond to that number.

Maybe I am the one missing something. It all made perfect sense to me. Good job fellows. I thought both parts were well written and easy to follow.

I for one hope Tom continues to answer these questions. His 'interpretations' are very easy to understand and have been quite helpful. I would imagine that he has a pretty firm grasp on Don's system, as well as a lot of others. Keep it comin' Tom!

Lincoln,

The article was in the most recent issue of the magazine. There are plenty in stock and they are readily available. 99% of what is contained in that particular article is in Don's own words so you won't have to go through me - you can get the information first hand.

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