After doing alot of research on this subject over the last couple of years I feel I'm pretty comfortable with how it all works. Acknowledging that the action of a given blank can be changed by any number of ways ie: adding weight to the tip, more contact points with the blank (doublefoots vs singlefoots), increasing hoopsthrength (longer wraps) and cutting the blank either at the tip or butt ends. My question is can you change the power of the blank by any of these methods. I would tend to think that you would be changing the power by cutting off some of the tip on say a fast action blank. Any thoughts? Dan

ok cutt it off the tip make the rod stiffer=more powerthen the action goes mike r

You cannot change the action by adding weight, guides, etc. Flex a naked blank and note where it first forms a 90 degree bend. Let's say that happens in the upper 1/3. That's a fast action blank. Now add 100 guides to it and flex it again - it will still form that initial 90 degree bend in exactly the same place. It's still a fast action blank.

Nearly all blanks do have what is referred to as a "progressive action" and this is independent of the catagory given in the catalogs and spec sheets. This refers to what happens as the blank is loaded further and further - the bend begins to move towards the mid section area and then the butt as you transfer the load to the most powerful area of the blank. At this point the tip will flatten out - even on your fast action blank, but it is still a fast action blank.

Cutting a blank from either end will make it less fast. Cutting from the butt generally causes you to lose some power. Cutting from the tip does not make the blank more powerful overall, but does remove the softer tip area of the blank allowing you to possibly handle a bit more casting weight. The overall dead-lifting capacity is largely unchanged however, as even with the tip intact it is the mid and butt section that carries the max load.

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Good Question !
I personally think POWER & ACTION are different than STIFFNESS, but might be considered also.

Power is stiffness really. And I'd go with Tom on the action thing. Action is created by the taper and wall thickness of the material the blank is made from. You won't change any of that by adding guides or making longer wraps. You can turn a nice blank into a flimsy noodle if you overload it with tons of heavy components but that won't change the action.

Something else you have to be careful of is trimming the blank to try and make the blank stronger. You won't. I have known guys who would cut back the tip thinking that the rod would then be more powerful. The power was the same, they just took the flex out of the tip. Unless you can beef up those blank walls, you won't make it more powerful by any sort of cutting.

OK. Then, if Power is actually STIFFNESS, let´s compare it Versus Action. Are they same Phisic Concept, but opposite definitions and uses in Rod Builders Language?
THANKS AGAIN !!!

Solana

Power is the ability of a rod to lift a load, or weight, without breaking. Action refers to how fast, or slow, the tip returns to a still, or static, position after being bent, or flexed, and released. In physics, power is a measurement, actually a ratio, of the amount of work done, or capable of being done. Action, in physics, can be measured many ways, one of which is speed. These terms are used properly by rodbuilders. But, arguing symantics does not answer the original question. It might help not to confuse stiffness with rigidity.

Bill Doherty

Actually, action as it relates to a fishing rod, is the definition of where the rod bends initially. Upper 1/3rd is fast, upper 1/2 is moderate, and any flex below that is considered slow.

Recovery is the term that relates to how quickly a rod returns to a static position after being flexed and released. The term "damping" is also used here and a system exhibits damping if the system producing the motion also produces a force that inhibits the motion. In the case of a fishing rod, this would be the friction between the air and the rod. But rod recovery is also affected (and greatly so) by the amount of mass set in motion. So we are dealing with more than one effect when it comes to recovery. I'm also getting off the subject so I'll stop here on the recovery thing.

Stiffness or power, and action have little if anything to do with each other. You can have a very stiff fast action rod, and you can also have a very soft fast action rod. Again, action refers to where the rod initially wants to bend while power would refer to the load a rod is capable of handling. It is possible to have two rods of identical power with vastly different actions.

You also have to be careful how you relate power and stiffness. An ultra-light rod made from a very high modulus fiber might well be refered to as being very "stiff", and yet it would have very little power. Bill's definition of power as referring to how much work can be done is a better way of putting things.

Notice that in most of the blank manufacturer's catalogs you see two listings - one for "action" and one for "power". Action can be read across the board and is similar for all rods. Power must be considered within the realm of the particular classification - you can have a "heavy power" bass casting rod and a "heavy power" surf rod and the power will be quite different between the two.

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Tom

I was trying to over-simplify the dicussion. You are much better at putting your thoughts down in written words. The string above just looked like it was starting to head down a dead end path. I always try to find a blank that will preform the way I want, without altering its length or adding weight to it, by over wrapping it. I figure the blank manufacturers worked out the tapers, length and wall thickness carefully. If a blank is within 6 inches of what I ultimatly wanted, I can usually live with that.

Bill Doherty

And you are doing things the smart way. I can remember 20 years ago when most rod builders had to greatly modify a blank in order to get what they wanted. We didn't have the selection we have at the present. Now we have so much in the way of variety that is really is hard not to find something that is almost 100% what you need. At least if you're willing to look a bit.

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That's a great explanation of terminology that Tom has given that may well explain quite a bit to rodbuilders.

Now, just to make a point on how much of what we relate to a customer checking out various blanks and finished rods, the term
'stiffness' probably causes the most confusion related to final rod performance. I think many know what I mean here. Someone grabs the tip and wants to bend the rod around and equate this to total 'strength' and performance. Maybe I'm not too clear here, but the notion that many will mention the blank or rod is too 'stiff'. It may be very light, but to them it is 'just too stiff' (and relates little to 'power'). So, the tendency is to choose a ligher power (say from medium down to light) to get the 'feeling' desired. This might lead to an erroneous choice if the idea is to use a higher rated line. The opposite holds true very frequently about using an overrated rod (say a med heavy) and wanting to use an undersized reel with heavy line. These conditions will likely cause an undesired effect of less than optimum performance.

As rodbuilders we'de like to strive for the rod to be at optimum. Thus relaying facts such as mentioning the 'stiff' rod has the ideal stiff-ness to weight ratio, better sensitivity, and use on the water with the matching line/reel is what makes the rod perform and NOT what one might take as a first impression in the raw state of the rodshop. More often than not, a greater degree of sensitivity and overall performance is noticed more on the water and in fish catching, than the indoor lair of the rodbuilders shop. So, all these preconceptions can lead to making the initial blank choice more difficult.

Probably got lots confused here, but the point I'm trying to make is that not to judge a rod performance by how 'stiff' it might 'feel' , but more in line with judging the better graphite or fiber compositions and how they relate to total performance, taking into consideration the matching reel/line and specific applications desired for the use of the rod. I also think Recovery, damping, or sometimes use the term of 'less rebound' is an important feature that will affect castability and performance. So the point of a rod giving a lot of 'flex' may not necessarily relate to 'sensitivity'. All these terminologies need to be put into perspective, and if experience serves me, it can be difficult to relate at times to a prospective rod customers. I guess this is the reason there is so many choices for blanks and the rod pro shop can best relate this if understood by the rodbuilder themselves.

Rich
Solyrich Custom Rods

Great subject, and one that is usually very misunderstood by most. It is hard to relate to our customers needs by their own descriptions. Generally a test cast of a rod whether it is their exact choice or not, will let you know what they are looking for. It will give us a point of reference. Each customer has their own description. A test cast says it all in a minute. It is like trying to determine the correct choice of blank from a catalog. We as rodbuilders have to be a good interpreter of our products and and apply them to our customer's needs. The above statements should help us all to get to a better understanding.

Bruce Young
Landing Gear

I don't know how many times I've had someone come in and ask for a "heavy action" rod! With some questioning I can usually figure out what it is they are after.

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Great responses as usual. This board just offers so much expertise. I made a mistake when I said that the "action" could be changed by adding weight and such. I guess what I meant was what Bill and Tom pointed out, changing the "performance" of the blank. I like a specific "performance" characteristic in a spinnerbait casting rod. Until the advent of the new crankbait series by Loomis and now by St. Croix I was unable to find the perfromance I liked in a lightweight blank. I like to build on the concept system and the usual Medium Fast blanks just recovered too quickly. So I built them with double foots all the way down which in effect dampened the action. Now I can build on the CBR blanks with the concept system and get the exact action I want. Which got me thinking about the power thing. Thanks for all the great responses. Dan

What brands and models are similar to the GLoomis GL3 9ft 4wt in action/stiffness and power? I have been looking at Sage, Thomas & Thomas, St Croix and Gatti, but don't know which their models, if any, would be similar. I would be interested in knowing about others also.