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Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Tony Tomanek (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: April 09, 2018 04:19PM

I purchased a 6' North Fork Composites blank for some great Walleye fishing here on Lake Erie. I also purchase Fuji KL-H titanium guides for this blank. According to Fuji there should be 9 guides on this 6' blank. NFC only shows 6. I assume that the Fuji guide placement is the correct placement. However, I have spent way too much money on this blank and carbon fiber handle etc. to screw it all up now. I am looking for some of you guidance here. I am leaning towards the Fuji set-up. I can be convinced otherwise.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 09, 2018 05:18PM

You'll most likely find that both will work. That's the thing about rod building in so many ways - different set ups can all work, but some will work a little better than others depending on the application involved.

Are you going to use a casting reel on this rod? If you're using very low frame guides, or what many call "micro-guides," then it is indeed likely that you'll need more than 6. If you're using higher framed guides, for some reason, then you might get by with 6. If you're building a spinning rod, then 6 might work okay. At some point you just need to try some different set-ups and see how each one works for you.

...............

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.97.---)
Date: April 09, 2018 05:30PM

Nine guides on a 6 foot rod ? I just completed a 9 foot spinning rod build following Fuji's KR GPS info using a size 5000 spinning reel , total # of guides is 9 not including the tip top and it performs incredibly well .


[anglersresource.net]

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 09, 2018 05:49PM

is it a spinning or casting rod if it is a spinning NFC is correct if it is a casting rod fuji is correct + or - 1 runner but that is my take

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 09, 2018 05:51PM

As guides get lighter and lighter, there is far less penalty to pay by erring on the side of more guides. No reason to overdo it, of course, but this is not as critical as it once was in terms of a weight penalty on performance.

................

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Tony Tomanek (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: April 09, 2018 05:56PM

It's a spinning rod and with KR set-up. Smaller running guides. Fascinating that there is a seemingly lack of clarity. Fuji chart for KL-H guides clearly shows 9. I am now leaning to reducing the number.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.97.---)
Date: April 09, 2018 06:03PM

Tony Tomanek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a spinning rod and with KR set-up. Smaller
> running guides. Fascinating that there is a
> seemingly lack of clarity. Fuji chart for KL-H
> guides clearly shows 9. I am now leaning to
> reducing the number.



You must be referring to those KL-H full guide kits on Mudhole . pay no mind to those , Mudhole put those together and it's NOT what Fuji recommends according to Jim Ising and actual Fuji documents . I believe those guide kits are purposely put together to throw as many guides in there whether they're needed or not.

I wouldn't follow that guide chart either , follow the KR GPS info on Fuji's official Anglers Resource site.


[www.mudhole.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2018 06:06PM by herb canter.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 09, 2018 08:31PM

I am not sure about what Fuji guide chart you are talking about. If it is the from a Mudhole Fuji guide kit, trash it and use the Fuji KR GPS as Herb suggests. I Just did a quick guide calculation based on a 3000 reel with 10-20 # braid, and a butt to spool tip length of 10.5” and the GPS said you would use a total of six guides for this rod. They include a 16H, 8H, and 5.5M for your reduction train, and three KB/KT runners in the size of your choice. I would probably add at least 1 more runner for total of 7 guides. If you need more info let us know.
Norm

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.97.---)
Date: April 09, 2018 09:06PM

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not sure about what Fuji guide chart you are
> talking about. If it is the from a Mudhole Fuji
> guide kit, trash it and use the Fuji KR GPS as
> Herb suggests. I Just did a quick guide
> calculation based on a 3000 reel with 10-20 #
> braid, and a butt to spool tip length of 10.5”
> and the GPS said you would use a total of six
> guides for this rod. They include a 16H, 8H, and
> 5.5M for your reduction train, and three KB/KT
> runners in the size of your choice. I would
> probably add at least 1 more runner for total of 7
> guides. If you need more info let us know.
> Norm


Norm , the link i provided above shows the guide kits and what guides they contain and how many and a Fuji KL-H spacing chart which shows a total of 9 guides for a 6 foot rod lol. Scroll down a bit and you will see it . Jim Ising said he was going to correct that info by contacting Mudhole but don't know if he got around to it.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Tony Tomanek (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: April 09, 2018 09:18PM

Thanks you all have been a big help. I'll follow the Fuji GPS.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 09, 2018 11:16PM

Mudhole wants to do it their way. Their chart may work just fine, but it’s more of a one size fits all layout for general purpose use. They seem to like 4 guides in the reduction train vs 3. I much prefer the three guide reduction train, but that’s me. The chart also does not take into account reel or line size and type. They also push the choke pt further out then they need to. I also don’t place the first guide less than 3.5” - 4” from the tip top, which they do. However, I do use an extra runner or two over the KR GPS recommendation, but that’s usually due to static testing results and trying to get a nice progressively spaced guide train. In all fairness, Mudhole does state that their chart is for general purpose applications, and suggest to visiting the Anglers Resource site for more info.
Norm

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: April 10, 2018 01:04AM

Tony,
Take a look at the fine print to the right in the pictures, they show the same amount of guides from 6 1/2 ft. to 8 1/2 ft. Makes no sense, you can do better just eye balling it. For one thing no one as of yet has shown me why I need tip guides only 3 inches apart on a rod.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: April 10, 2018 10:00AM

Tony,
Pretty simple.
Take some 1/8th or 1/4 inch masking tape.

Take each guide configuration measurement and put a wrap of tape at the locations for the first set of guides.

Then, do a deep flex on the rod blank to simulate a fully loaded rod. Imagine that your line is now going from each tape location to the next location. Take note of what you observe.

Then, repeat the process, using the 2nd guide setup and take note of what you observe.

The easy explanation of the test is that you want enough - but just enough - guides on the rod to insure that the line will follow the contour of the loaded rod blank. i.e. from the reel to the tip of the rod, you want a uniform space from the reel to the tip of the rod.

------------
If you do not get a good enough visualization using this method, take a set of guides and tape the guides at each of the two guide set up locations and run colored line through the guides to be able to easily see the line path of the line - in both a straight blank as well as a fully loaded blank configuration.

Then, repeat for the second guide setup.

Common sense and your eyes will tell you the correct answer for your particular rod blank.

Be aware, that if you are building a blank with a slow to moderate action, there is no need for a clustering of guides near the tip, since even a loaded blank will have a slow bending tip.

On the other hand, when you build on a fast or extra fast tip, you will find that you need close clustering of the guides near the tip, to insure that the tip section of the blank remains fully loaded with the line following the contour of the very fast changing tip in a blank of this type and design.

For example - in a rod blank with a slow action, you may find that guides that are 5-8 inches apart may let the line follow the contour of a heavily loaded blank.


But, in contrast for an extra fast light action rod blank, you may find that you have to have the guides 2-3 inches apart to insure that you have the line following the hevilly flexed rod blank.

So, 6 guides may be correct, 9 or even 14 guides may be correct for a given rod blank, depending on the action and power of the blank. Also, if you are building a conventional casting rod with the guides on top of the blank, and you want to insure that the line does not rub on the blank, or be below the blank, you may have to go to a very large number of guides if you are using very short guides like micro guides. On the other hand, if using more conventional - much taller guides in a conventional on top of the rod casting rod, and want to keep the line above and not touching the blank you will be able to use much fewer guides to achieve the same purpose.

So, consider the blanks action and power, the type of rod being built, and the height and ring size of the guides being used. All have a part in the final decision on the location and number of guides.


Good luck

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.97.---)
Date: April 10, 2018 10:18AM

I have found the opposite of Roger , i have found that the stiffer and faster the rod blank , fewer guides are going to be needed .

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: April 10, 2018 10:36AM

There are a number of sources for placing Fuji guides. Fuji publishes a few charts in their Japanese catalog. We developed GPS. Mudhole assembled kits. And then there's static loading. It can be confusing. Every one of these sources will give you a different layout. I honestly believe you are better off settling on one and sticking to it. Use your chosen source for all the information you need because as soon as you go to another source your confusion will start all over again. I don't know how the world ended up this way. In most realities the people who develop an idea and manufacture a product to fill that need would be considered the primary source of information. I don't go to Suzuki to get my Mercury worked on. Rod building is not like that. In this hobby Suzuki guys are fixing Mercurys and Yamahas and Evinrudes every day of the week and they'll even work on your chartplotter if you ask. If you're new to the craft you need to understand this going in.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Tony Tomanek (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: April 10, 2018 10:41AM

I'm not new to the craft but I had several years of non-building. Getting into it now that I am retired. This is my first KR type rod. As much information that's out there you'd think it wouldn't be an issue. This dialog has provided me with enough data to make a much better and more informed decision on the placement of these Fuji guides. Thanks to all. Next a "Roberts Wrap". That should be fun.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: April 10, 2018 11:15AM

Tony,
NFC and G Loomis before it have been building all rod styles, all rod types, all blank types, all actions, and they performed so well many have used them as the yardstick to compare all others to in certain categories. Gary was one of the first, if not the first person to build high performance, light, durable graphite rods/blanks. Others were using it, but their failure rates were much higher. He has designed rod blanks for specific purposes longer than anyone, categories that didn't even exist before he built a rod for it.
Fuji is in the component selling business, Mudhole is in the component selling business, Gary Loomis sells all that stuff, but on a compete rod, and has for 40+ years, who's right? At least who has shown the know how to successfully put it all together, for decades to some very happy customers.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Tony Tomanek (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: April 10, 2018 11:18AM

Certainly a follwer of Gary. I own 3 NFC blanks and one Edge Rod. Trying to get the best performance out of my NFC blank. I agree 100%.

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: Jay Dubay (---.clv.wideopenwest.com)
Date: April 10, 2018 12:36PM

Unless you plan on building on the same blank your whole life, I agree with Roger, Set It Up and due a static test, {With a Load on the Blank} It won't Lie, I do this with every Blank I build on the first time. I record my data, And if I happen to build on the same blank again 8 months from now, I set-up with my data, And Still give it a static test again! As you never Know if any changes have been made in the lay-up, Of that blank, The composites scrims or resins have changed? Possibly Due to different manufacturing lot #'s by the manufacture. Just a Smart Thing To Due. Cheers jaa

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Re: Fuji Gudie Chart vs North Fork Customs Guide Chart.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.97.---)
Date: April 10, 2018 03:06PM

Wow, i thought everything was worked out and all confusion was dismissed after Tony said " OK , thank you everybody i will use the Fuji KR GPS " info lol.


Tony , stick to the KR GPS like Norm and Fuji's product development manager said ESPECIALLY FOR THE REDUCTION TRAIN then do the static tests for the runners like the others suggested , you will be an extremely happy camper .


Side note: If in the rare and unexpected case you find yourself less than a jubilant camper please direct your hostility & outrage toward Roger & Spencer.

Thank you & have a great day

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