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First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Raymond Dombrowski (---.sub-174-230-6.myvzw.com)
Date: April 07, 2018 03:55PM

Hello all!

This is my first rod build and I'm sure I'm over thinking this whole guide thing. It's for my father's birthday which is quickly approaching. I would love some guidance so I can start building!

The rod is a 7' medium/fast with a 3000 spinning reel. It will most likely be used with mono as that what he tends to use.

I'm struggling to lock down what guides to use and where to put the choker at. I've looked at 27x, NGC, the KR GPS, asked the local builder who teaches rod building(recommends 25,20,16,12,8, and 6s). Every answer is different. Same with strippers and the train.

The reel I'm using has very little upsweep. It puts me way to close to the tip for a choke point. 27x has me near 47". KRC is 41", and people I've seen here are between 38" and 43".

I like the idea someone mentioned where they half the stripper for the next guide. Which is also what the KRC shows. So 20, 10, 6. This seems simple to me and I can easily get them all in line. But when I use it for conventional build it shows 20, 10, 6 then the choke. But I'm planning to run 6s as the runners so is this an issue?? Does the type of guide matter? From what I understand the goal is to "bullseye" then static load the runners.

Right now I'm looking 20, 10, 8, 6(choke/runners). Or should I drop the 8? Add a 12 and drop the 10? I'm only steering away from micros as in my head they feel more intimidating to wrap. Are 2 guides to the choke point enough or is 3 better?

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 07, 2018 04:25PM

The guy teaching rod building appears to be using every size guide, just because they're available. It'll work, but it's far from the best way.

The other New Concept Type Systems aren't going to give you the same spacings nor sizings, but they'll all work, and better than simply sticking every guide size made on there. You need to get your head around what it is that you're actually trying to accomplish - which is a straight line path which is under control as quickly as possible for your size reel and line size/type.

How far the choke guide is from the tip of the blank is of no consequence - it is the distance from the reel spool to the choke guide that matter. Anything beyond the choke guide is just extra distance that you take up with running guides. Absolutely forget where the choke guide is in relation to the tip of the blank. That makes no difference whatsoever.

If you will lay out the guides by allowing the line path to show you what sizes to use and where to put them, it'll all become clearer. The 27X method explains this.

The KR GPS will get you right into the ballpark without doing must more than just plugging in numbers.

The choke guide and running guides should be the same size.

.............

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Roger Templon (---.jst.pa.atlanticbb.net)
Date: April 07, 2018 05:30PM

Raymond
I build mostly 6'6" to 7'0" spinning rods. I use the 27x method most of the time, and my choker guide usually falls between 45" and 47" for the reels that I use. This spacing works very well for me. I usually use 2500 and 3000 size reels and most of my rods start with a #25 or #20 high framed stripping guide. I am completely sold on the 27x guide train system.
Rog

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: April 07, 2018 05:35PM

You'll get a million different answers here, and interpreting what they mean can lead you off. Go with Kirkman.

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 07, 2018 06:27PM

I should also mention that there is also the MicroWave system, which is pretty easy to use. Most of the work is already done for you.

..............

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: April 07, 2018 06:55PM

And i would like t o mention that there is the cone of flight system especially if they are still using mono..keep everything in the last century..lol.

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.97.---)
Date: April 07, 2018 07:01PM

Iv'e been through everything you're going through and decided to see just how accurate Fuji's GPS system for the KR concept was so i put in my info and it spit out a Fuji KL-H 20 a 10 H and a 5.5 M followed by 1 KB 5.5 to 6 KT 5.5 's . I also followed their exact spacings for each guide in the reduction train and i got to be honest this thing is absolutely awesome .

Cast's incredible and the whole rod is supported since the KL-H stripper is about 21 inches from the reel , i attempted to tweak the setup but found the performance was as good as it was going to get , Fuji did a stellar job coming up with that stuff. I also love Tom's 27 X system but i prefer that for my much longer surf rods .

Imo you can't beat the KR setup for inshore rods up to 9 feet and the Microwave system is highly praised as well. For a 7 foot inshore rod with a 3000 size reel it's perfection.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 07:07PM by herb canter.

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Travis Thompson (---.mobile.uscc.net)
Date: April 07, 2018 07:21PM

where do I find info on this KR system and the 27 system?

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 07, 2018 08:19PM

The 27X is used for building New Guide Concept (NGC) spinning rods, and normally uses size 6 or larger running guides and works well with Mono line. [www.rodbuilding.org]
The KR concept is rapid choke, micro guide concept (smaller than size 6 runners) that works very well with braided line. [anglersresource.net] Used the KR GPS at Anglers Resource for guide sizes and placement. [anglersresource.net]
If you have any questions ask them and we will try to help.
Norm

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: April 07, 2018 09:32PM

The KR concept also works well with fluorocarbon line. I have factory rods that according to advertising, uses the NGC (new guide concept) and I have spinning rods that I've built that use the KR concept. I get much less line slap with the KR concept rods I built versus the NGC factory rods I use with the same size reels and same size line.

I'd go with the KR concept and not even look back. The rods I built with that perform beautifully !!!!

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 07, 2018 09:43PM

I agree with David, once I tried the KR concept, I never looked back.
Norm

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: April 07, 2018 11:08PM

Raymond,
Pretty simple.
Use guides in size 25,16,10 and 6 to the tip with a #6 tip top.

Put the size 25 guide at 20 inches from the reel seat and space the other guides so that the line flows through them nicely.

Don't get too hung up on this system, or that system, or choker guides or some other name for a guide.

Build the rod, so that it looks right and the line flows nicely with minimal contact with the guides and you will be good to go.

Be safe

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Raymond Dombrowski (---.sub-174-230-15.myvzw.com)
Date: April 08, 2018 01:04AM

Thanks for all the responses! Very helpful!

Do I have to use the KL guides or can I use any guide and apply the concept to them the same way?

Is wrapping a micro guide any more difficult vs non-micro?

Edit- Sorry Roger did not see your post before I made this one. Don't want you think I've disregarded your response.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 01:07AM by Raymond Dombrowski.

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: April 08, 2018 05:42AM

I agree with Roger..create your own concepts..why should the guide makers have all the fun...you build better rods than commercial , you can come up with better guide placement concepts, at least as good and it,s more fun..

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: April 08, 2018 06:01AM

Oh! and please share your ideas..i need all the help i can get..lol.

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: April 08, 2018 06:27AM

Here's the thing .....I respect what the members are saying. These guys know A LOT more about putting together guide trains than me. And honestly, while I understand spinning rod guide trains somewhat, I certainly don't know the intricacies of what really makes them tick. With that said, I don't see why someone would build a rod with what is basically a factory rod, guide train.

I haven't been building rods that long, but I have been fishing pretty seriously, for a long time. Like most of us, one of my first rods was a spinning rod that I am sure used a cone of flight guide train. I then graduated to spinning rods that use NGC guide trains. And now I am building rods that use the KR concept. Now memory may not be serving me well, but as I remember .... the performance difference between a COF guide train and an NGC guide train wasn't really that much. In comes the KR concept guide train. The performance difference between an NGC guide train and a KR concept drive train is remarkable, and I use fluorocarbon line. Which by all accounts, is problematic on spinning gear.

The KR gps software makes it easy to set up. If I were a more experienced rod builder, I might even be offended by using it. I mean after all, you just plug numbers into computer software, and it does the work. I won't say you don't learn anything about guide trains by using the KR gps software, because if you're inquisitive and want to know what makes things tick, you'll look at the various guide train lay outs and see their differences. So while you may not learn how to set up other guide train types, you'll see why one works better than another.

Now certainly the KR concept may not be the ticket for every type, or every length of rod, but for the type of rod being built here. I don't see how you could do better.

As far as wrapping micro guides goes ... I pretty much have used micro guides (if 4.5s are considered micro) since I started building. To me the two largest difficulties they present are (1) prepping the guide foot ... it's kinda tough holding that small ring. and (2) running line through them when it's time to go fishing. Other than that they aren't that hard to deal with.

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: April 08, 2018 08:18AM

One early question that I've not seen answered is : Can one use a reduction train of just two guides, with the third guide being the first of the runners. Yes you can. I've done it and the rods cast fine. Now that I'm into using KLH guides I don't do that, but it can be done. What I used were Y Alps titanium reduction guides in 25-10 then 5.5's (I believe, but don't remember for sure) to the tip. Set them up so looking down the train you see the bullseye image of concentric rings.

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: April 08, 2018 09:13AM

hi Michael..that,s interesting..what reel and line did you use for that set up..Thanks..

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: April 08, 2018 12:02PM

David,
Speaking of guide prepping:

I had the same issue as you did when prepping guide feet.
I use my 30 inch belt sander for prepping guide feet along with a myriad of other tasks.

To hold the guide, I prepared some different sized pieces of rod blanks and different sized machine screws. i.e. larger blank pieces for larger guides and smaller diameter blank pieces for smaller guides, along with a corresponding change in the size of the machine screws.

I use my dremel abrasive cut off tool. so that when I put a guide on the screw, and slip the piece of blank over the tool for holding the guide when prepping, I then screw on a wing nut on the end of the machine screw. To expedite changing the guides, I cut the machine screw so that I only have to do about two turns of the wing nut to have the screw tight on the ring of the guide for holding the guide.

For the smaller micro guides one needs to go down to smaller machine screws that may be 6-32, 4-40, or 2-56 to allow the screw to fit inside the ring of the guide while prepping.

Then, the piece of blank serves as a longer convenient handle to hold against the spinning belt sander to thin and prep the guide as needed.

--
I will say that in recent years and especially with the micro guides, there may be little to no guide prep required. The newer guide designs and styles tend to have a pretty well prepped guide foot that normally does not need a lot of preparation.


[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Just make additional guide holders for working with small guides of different sizes. You want a screw that just fits nicely inside the guide ring for the prepping tool.

Good luck



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 12:15PM by roger wilson.

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Re: First build - Guide questions
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 08, 2018 12:53PM

The Fuji KR guides are easy to wrap, even the small KB and KT runners. Their feet require very little if any prepping. I have no problem with people prepping their guide feet to make them easier to wrap. However, I rarely if ever do it, because I find it unnessary, and do not want to remove the corrosion prevention coating. I do not have problems with wrapping unprepped guides. Just takes a little practice.
Over the years I have used all of the various guide placement methods and systems for spinning rods, and it my opinion the KR concept is the best I have used for the rods I build..Other may disagree, but that is one of things that makes a custom rod custom.
Norm

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