I'm building a 7.5' MH Spinning Rod for use with both 20lb braid and 15lb mono and a 2500 to 4000 reel. I want to use the KL or KL-H guides for aesthetics and the tanglefree design. However I'm concerned that between heavy mono and the stress on the mid section of the rod a 3 guide reduction train and a small choker might not make sense. Typically on a rod like this i would do a 25, 16, 10, 8, 7, 6, 6, 6 but with K series guides they makes no sense. How would you guys lay out a rod like this?

Thanks in advance.

Why doesn't a 3-guide reduction train make sense? Actually, it makes more sense than using 6 different sized guides, that do nothing but interrupt and otherwise straighter, smoother and lighter guide set up.

You don't need to use every guide size just because they make them.

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How about a 25 12 8 6's........

I agree, there are no problems with a three guide reduction train. If you are going to be using multiple reels and multiple types of line in various line test, build the rod for the biggest reel and largest line you.are planning on using. In your case for a KR micro setup using 15 lb mono with a 4000 reel I would use KL25H, KL12Hm and KL5.5M (or KL6M) for the reduction train followed by KB/KT runners in the size you want. A size 5 runner might be a good compromise if you are using leader knots. This setup will still work very well with a smaller reel and lighter line. If you will be mainly using a 2500/3000 reel with 15-20 braid.i would use KL20H, KL10H, and KL5.5M for the reduction train and KB/KT 4.5 for runners. The nice thing about the KR concept is there are a number of different variations and they all work great.
Norm

Robert Tanner Wrote:
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> How about a 25 12 8 6's........

The KR gps kicks out this exact layout but with a 7 before the 6 runners. Wondering if the 8 would also be a good choice in front of 7 runners.

Tom- I'm fully aware there's no need to use all or even half the guide sizes. On rods heavier than a walleye rod I've always built with the NGC because it places larger guides in the midsection where the most stress is and also because it gives a more natural and gentle curve to the line when the rod is in a deep bend.

Norman that tip on building for the largest reel clears up the waters a good bit, but the day I put anything smaller than size 6 runners on a rod like this gives me the shakes.

The line path will tell you exactly what size guides you need to use.

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I have built many 1000s of rods over the past 49 years and I used to think the same thing about a size 6 being the smallest guide I would ever need or use. However, when the KR guides first came out I was extremely curious about how they would perform, so I tried them. Well they out performed all of my expectations. I liked them so much I basically stripped down (or gave away) all of my old spinning and casting rods with NGC guides and replaced them with KR guides, and I have not looked back. The KR concept is lighter, casts better, handles fish better, and just feels better, then any other guide system I have ever used, and believe me I have used them all. I have also converted a number of nonbelievers into ardent fans. I would say that 90% of the rods I now make utilize the KR concept. Don’t knock them till you try them, new school is not so bad.
Norm

Kevin if your using braid with a leader you can go down to a 5 .5 or a 5 runner easily if you use the fg knot but if your using most any other knot you will sure as there is water in the ocean knock the rings out eventually.
have had several customers bring their production made rods for running guide repairs and most of them are 5.5- 4 's I feel that with the 6 runners you are on the top end of what would be to small IMHO.

you have to remember that not all the people that fish are up to speed with all the TECH and they are the ones that are using the wrong knot for the job especially when it comes to attaching a leader to the main line and making it longer than it need be

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

I'm not sure that you will think anything will work well with 15 mono after using 20 braid. I would not consider using 15 mono on any spinning rig and would simply set it up per the Fuji catalog grouping recommendations for 20 braid.

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Matthew I assume the guides you do replace are not KR micro guides. The KR micro guides have not been around very long so very few production rods use them, however they are becoming increasingly more popular on high end rods. I replace a lot of guides and noticed that the guides I do replace because of popped out rings are NOT Fuji KR guides. I use braid with a leader and fish a lot (almost everyday) in both fresh and saltwater using mostly 4.5 KB/KT runners, and most of the people I build for are also ardent fishermen, with many fishing tournaments, and I have yet had a ring pop out of a KR guide, other than a tiptop. The deep pressed ring design and weldless frame makes them extremely durable. The people I build for feel the same way. I also feel that these small guides are less prone to the rings accidentally popping out because their small size makes them less prone to being knock about. I rarely use size 6 runners any more, they seem just too large. Just my experiences and opinions.
Norm

Thanks for all the input everybody! Intriguing to see some recommendations for size 5 runners or smaller with leader knots. 20lb flourocarbon (my heavier leader) is tough to make a compact knot with but I still can't imagine busting out running guides with it! Actually my insistence on the 6 runners is more cold weather related than anything.

Michael- I'd agree with all of that. Good performance and 15lb mono on a spinner should never be in the same sentence. I may go down to 12, and I'm not expecting the kind of setup id want to cast all day. I just need a rod I can spool up with heavier mono a week or two a year.

If I were building the rod and worried about cold weather and freezing, I would go with a 25, 16, 10, and 6 to the tip and a size 6 tip top.


Good luck

Fishing in freezing weather is of concern when selecting a guide train. Since I live in the South, guide icing is of little to no concern except for a couple of days a year, and when it get that cold we don’t fish, we just wait a few hours for weather to warm up again. Learn how to tie the FG knot. In my opinion, it is the thinnest and strongest braid to leader knot out there. Since there is no tag end in the front of the knot, it passes smoothly and quietly through very small runners when casting, you hardly know you are passing a knot.

Norm

The FG is the best answer for braid- to leader -knots with leaders in the 15 leader test and up. Below 15, it's probably not necessary and for me, harder to tie properly. BUT, there are a number of ways to tie it, and a number of ways to screw it up. We could do probably 10 pages of posts on it and still have people swearing by it and at it. Do a search and listen to some videos on it. Since it works by actually deforming the leader, it HAS to be pulled tighter than any other knot I know in order to work, and the half hitches at the last step have to be secured with no compromise.

I'll admit the FG knot is new to me. I found it fairly straightforward to tie and it is very smooth and quiet through the guides. It'll take me a year to learn to trust it completely but I will be using it this season.

This rod was never going to have a runner smaller than a size 6 for a variety of reasons, but being able to make a knot that small opens the door to micro runners in a few other applications where leader knots would have been the sole reason not to use them.

Well you can still do a conventional (not micro) KR setup using size six runners. Try KL25H, KL12H, KL7M, followed by the KB/KT6 runners for a three guide reduction train. For a four guide transition train try KL25H, KL12H, KL7M, and KL6L, followed by the size 6 runners, the KL6L would be used as your choke guide.
Norm

I still use the uni knot with the KR runners ant tip 4.5 without issues. However, my max leader is 12lbs