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Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: Paul Wood (---.columbus.res.rr.com)
Date: January 05, 2018 07:57PM

Happy New Year, All!
My sweetheart surprised me this Christmas with a power wrapper, and had heard me speak of getting the upgraded chuck, so she looked it up in my Mud Hole catalog, and bought the ATC wrapper with the Pac Bay chuck. I've read enough reviews to conclude that this isn't the best upgrade available (don't get me wrong...no disrespect intended to any of the sponsors here). I've tried everything I can think of to eliminate the slight wobble with this chuck, but it seems to be in the bearings, not in the position I've mounted it in. Despite this wobble, it does an excellent job wrapping thread, but I'm thinking about taking a stab at turning some cork or EVA grips with my new lathe. Nothing extreme to start...just some sandpaper turning. Does anyone know if the Pac Bay tailstock with an arbor from a sponsor on the left eliminate this wobble? I can purchase a small lathe for less than changing the chuck again with the associated tailstock, and will do that before I hurt my gal's feelings. Any input?
As always, I appreciate and respect the advice from everyone here! Thanks in advance for your replies!

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 05, 2018 10:39PM

Call Mud hole and see if they can do a swap out for one that doesn't wobble as it sounds like it was not perfect as it should be.
They work well with customers and care about your issues if you let them know

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: January 06, 2018 12:02AM

I assume that this is the power wrapper that you purchased?

[www.mudhole.com]

Although it is an all right wrapper, the power head stock is made of molded parts, that may or may not be "perfect."

In past years, I have owned that exact head stock and chuck. I had the same issue that you are having and only solved it when I went to a much higher quality head stock and chuck. An improved chuck won't help the wobble if the end of the shaft wobbles or if the attachment of the chuck to the shaft is not perfect.

I wonder if you could return the wrapper and pick up a different unit?

For example:
The Alps wrapper has a machine shop like quality on the head stock and chuck.
[www.getbitoutdoors.com]

It would be interesting to know if the Alps head stock would fit on your current wrapper.

-----------------------------
If you compare the Alps head stock, the Renzetti head stock and chuck and a couple of machine shop quality lathes all use this same excellent head stock and chuck.

Good luck

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: Paul Wood (---.columbus.res.rr.com)
Date: January 06, 2018 01:29AM

Roger-that is the wrapper that I have, with Mud Hole's offering for an upgraded chuck (the Pac Bay). Are you and maybe Matthew thinking the problem might be with the wrapper itself, and not the chuck? I have the original chuck that came with wrapper...should I put that back on the wrapper to see if the wobble still exists?

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: January 06, 2018 05:04AM

the black plastic chuck is the problem the up grade to the metal one should fix your problem
I my self don't use the same machine for turning because of the dust that could contaminate a wrapped rod

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: Jay McKnight (---.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com)
Date: January 06, 2018 09:10AM

I will warn you in advance. Should you purchase a wood lathe, you may end up like me. I've found turning wood to be more addictive than building rods.

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: January 06, 2018 09:50AM

Paul,
Go back to the basics.
Strip the head stock and start from there. i.e. remove all of the chucks from your head stock and then spin up your wrapper using the wrapper motor while checking the head stock shaft for run out or wobble.

i.e. you can just hold a pencil close to the spinning shaft and see if any part of the spinning shaft contacts the pencil or marker on one side of the shaft before another side of the shaft. You want to first verify that the main head stock shaft and bearings can give you a 100 % true running.

Now, the chuck attachment point can be a point of concern. i.e. if you have a plain straight non threaded, non tapered shaft - it is nearly impossible to attach a chuck to that object and have a minimal amount of run out or wobble.

Also, even with a straight shaft that is threaded on the chuck end of the shaft to attach the chuck, it can still be an issue to have a perfectly true running shaft. The reason is that you have to have an absolutely true set of threads on the end of the shaft and an absolutely true set of threads on the inside of the threaded chuck.

That is the reason why many many commercial sets of machine tools use no straight shafts and no threaded shafts. Rather, they use a tapered shaft, with a matching taper on the inside of the chuck. It is relatively easy to get a perfectly true running shaft that has a fixed taper on the end, and it is also relatively easy to insure that a chuck has a true taper on the inside end of the chuck.


So, on your current lathe you need to insure that you have a true running shaft and then, once you have a true running shaft, insure that the base of the chuck runs true with no jaws in use, and then finally, if the shaft is straight, the attachment and base run true, then check to see if the jaws hold the work piece perpendicular so that your work piece runs true.

------------------------------------
But, a bit of wobble in the chuck really has very little effect on wrapping a rod. Simply put, the rod is not turning that fast and the flexibility of the rod and mitigate a slight amount of wobble in the grip holding apparatus.

But, if you want to do grip shaping and turning or other turning work you really do heed to have a power unit and head stock that gives you essentially 0 wobble or run out.

Certainly the very best thing to do, is to use your current wrapper for turning rods. Then, if you want to turn grips, buy an inexpensive lathe that has a decent chuck and a good live tail stock to hold the end of a mandrel on which you have your grip installed for turning.

By the way, if you have access to Craigs list, or a used tool store, you can often find a used lathe for a very reasonable price. Warning - lathes are typically heavy. As a result, you want to be cautious about buying a lathe on line, unless you are sure about the price of shipping. If you have to ship a heavy lathe some distance, you can easily spend as much for shipping as you pay for the lathe.

Good luck

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: January 06, 2018 09:52AM

My upgraded metal chuck as you discribe doesn't wobble, that said, this is no heavy built lathe that stops all vibration with shear mass and percision construction. How far away from your headstock do you have the rod supports, and are there big guides installed on the rod when you get this wobble?

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: January 06, 2018 10:02AM

Spencer,
A simple test that any person can use to test a chuck and a system is to take a long length of drill rod. Chuck it into the chuck, tighten it down and check for wobble at the end of the drill rod with no rod supports.

You can also use a straight section of rod blank for this test.

You are checking for runout of the chuck. An excellent head stock and chuck assembly will be able to hold a long drill rod straight with virtually no wobble at the end of the drill rod - if all is accurate on the head stock and chuck and chuck jaws.

Good luck

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: January 06, 2018 10:05AM

Mathew, if what I am gathering from what Paul is saying is correct, he has the metal Pac Bay chuck. If I am correct, then I think there could be a few things in play here.

Paul, I have the Pac Bay version of the wrapper you have. I upgraded the stock chuck with the Alps chuck, but the Pac Bay metal chuck looks like it is a quality unit. I experience the same wobble that you're dealing with, and have some opinions as to what's causing it.

One of them is something that a tail stock would eliminate, and that is the slop in the rod stand rollers. While they are ball bearing rollers, they certainly aren't a high quality roller. They have slop in them. Pinch them between your fingers and they will wiggle both side to side, and up and down. I don't fault the companies for using them. They'll do the job they were intended to, which is wrapping a rod, but they aren't made for high speed turning.

Another thing I think that may be giving you some wobble is .....and please forgive me if this seems like a silly question, but did you level your mandrel between the chuck and your rod stand? If the mandrel isn't level, it's going to induce wobble. That's another thing a tail stock should eliminate. The need to level your mandrel when you transition from wrapping a rod, and turning a grip.

Additionally one thing is insuring your chuck tightens evenly on your mandrel, or whatever it is you may be chucking up. Like the Pac Bay upgrade chuck, my Alps chuck has rubber covers for the chuck's jaws. My Alps chuck came with two sets of jaw covers. One for smaller diameter objects, one for larger diameter objects. The jaws for the smaller diameters have a hollow tip, and they can compress unevenly if you're trying to secure them tightly to a mandrel. I had major wobble when I tried them. A much better design would have been to make the tips solid. And I may try and fill the tips (if you have the same type of jaw covers you'll see what I mean) to make them solid. Anyhow .... if you need to turn something with a smaller OD, I had better results using the jaws made for the larger diameter objects. Their inner surface fits flush to the jaws, so when you tighten them they don't compress unevenly. Masking tape wrapped around the mandrel (if needed) is the best way I've found to build up the diameter of the mandrel.

And finally, when you chuck something up, the position of the jaws seems to make a difference on how much wobble I have. If I position one of the jaws TDC and hold say my rod handle up against it as I tighten the jaws, I get less wobble than I would if I just let the handle lay on the jaws as I tighten them.

Anyhow ..... just a couple things that may help you eliminate some of the wobble you're experiencing.

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: January 06, 2018 10:11AM

By the way, I have a conventional wood lathe and I purchased some different sized machinist chucks for use on the lathe.

I also purchased chuck backing plates that were rough turned to size. This is normal for some chucks used in the industry. When the chucks arrived along with the backing plates, I have a friend who owns a commercial machine shop.

I removed the head stock shaft from the head stock of the lathe that I have. Then, I took the threaded head stock shaft, backing plates and chucks to the machine shop. The machinist chucked the head stock shaft in his big metal working lathe, screwed on the chuck backing plate and then turned down the backing plate for an absolutely flat surface when screwed onto my head stock shaft. By doing this, any slight misalignment of head stock threads and or internal backing plate chuck threads could all be machined away to insure a flat and perpendicular surface on which to mount the chuck. Then, matching holes were drilled into the backing plate to match the chuck and the backing plate was assembled to the chuck. The resulting chucks end up running true and perfectly on my lathe.

So, for a head stock shaft and chuck type that uses a removable head stock, this is one solution to insure that you have a chuck with 0 wobble or runout.

Good luck

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: January 06, 2018 10:24AM

Paul,
You could save yourself a lot of trouble and frustration by picking up an inexpensive lathe using a corded variable speed drill that would have 0 wobble and would do a fine job of grip turning for little money and time:

[www.grizzly.com]

Simple, portable, inexpensive if you have a corded drill. You can also pick up new corded drills for little money and you can also find used corded drills at used tool shops and or pawn shops for little money. Then, set this up, in a location that is removed from your wrapping and finish area to avoid dust and other contamination of your rods being wrapped and finished.

Chuck a mandrel into the chuck of the drill and it will run true. Slip the depressed end of the mandrel onto the tail stock and the full length of the mandrel and grip will run true with no wobble.

Good luck

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: John Shear (199.116.173.---)
Date: January 09, 2018 12:29PM

I have, and know others who have, the Pac Bay wrapper with upgraded chuck. It's very smooth and solid. Perhaps the problem is the chuck doesn't fit the ATC head unit as well.

John Shear
Chippewa Falls, WI

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Re: Pac Bay upgraded chuck "wobble"-will tail stock eliminate?
Posted by: Paul Wood (---.columbus.res.rr.com)
Date: January 11, 2018 09:19PM

Thanks for all the input! I'm not sure what actually took care of the wobble...I took almost everyone's advice! I suspect much of it was related to the rod stands. As I said, I never had a problem wrapping despite this, but adding the tail stock made the whole unit wobble free, which is what I was after to try my hand at turning some handles. I'm sure I'll have some questions about that soon!
Again, thanks! Looking forward to meeting all of you at the Expo!

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