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NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Sean Mitchell (---.static.twtelecom.net)
Date: November 29, 2017 03:22PM

Hi,

So i've been researching on here and the rest of internet land on building my 9'6" and 10' spinning rods for salmon/steelhead. Given they are longer in length and generally a more parabolic bend, it seems a 4 guide reduction train is advantageous However, I'm not real sure if the 4th reduction guide is supposed to be in the choker location or if all 4 come before the choker guide?

For instance, for a 4 guide reduction using 30-40lb braid, Fuji recommends a 25, 12, 8 and 7. So say I'm using a 3000 reel with a spool diameter of 1.84" and the spool shaft is 3" off the blank, that puts my choker guide placement (for NGC) at around 49.6". Ironically with my reel seat and reel, the upswept method puts the choker location close at around 53. So I run my straight edge from the spool axis to the choker point on the blank, not to the top lip of the choker guide. The spacing between the 25 and 12 and the 12 and 8 looks appropriate. But then the 8 and 7 are real close together and then with a 5-5.5" spacing on the running guides it just looks way off. Is there something I'm missing regarding a change that needs to be made to allow for 4 reduction guides?

Also, KR Concept. If I follow the KR concept using a KL25H stripper guide, it needs to be placed like 13" from the reel face??? With 40lb braid and 15lb topshots I'm a little leary about going to a KL20H stripper but even that height would locate the stripper guide close than the 18"-22" range I've always read about.

I think I've over studied and over complicated this by running around in circles but something still just doesn't click for me. The 2 rods I'm trying to layout are as follows.... 10', medium fast action with a Shimano Saros 3000 spooled with 40lb braid and a 15lb mono topshot. I use the Fg knot......... 9'6" slow action with a 2500 size reel spooled with 14lb fireline braid and no topshot.

Thanks
Sean

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 29, 2017 06:00PM

It is my opinion that the length of the rod has nothing to do with the proper reduction guide train. I recommend using the Fuji catalog recommendations for the reduction, 3 or 4, depending on the blank and line characteristics. Start with the first guide about 19-21 inches from the spool lip and place the other reduction guides at what you consider logical positions, then go with the running guides all the way out, number and position to be determined by stress test. In test casting, move the reduction train as a unit in and out a couple inches to see if it makes a difference in performance, adjusting running guides as required. I think you'll find optimum in a couple moves. Or more likely, your first setup will be as good as it gets.

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?this will
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 29, 2017 07:34PM

You are using the wrong GPS program. If you are going to use KLH guides use the KR GPS. [anglersresource.net] This will give you a really good starting point. The KLH guides give really funky distances when used in the NGC GPS. Remember that the KR concept is a rapid choke system designed for braid so the choke point is moved closer to the reel. Do not be concerned with using either the table top or 27X system for finding the choke point, which are used for NGC guide trains. The KR concept is a different animal!
I think a three guide reduction train will work well for both of your rods, I have built both 9’ and 10’ moderate fast salmon rods using a 3 KR guide reduction train and they function fantastically. With the reels you are using a size 20KLH stripper should be sufficient for both rods. However, a size 25KLH stripper will probabaly handle the 40# braid a little better. As Michael states above the stripper will be placed from 19 - 21” from the spool stem. The reduction trains would be 25KLH, 12KLH, 6KLM, or 20KLH, 10KLH, 6KLM (or 5.5KLM). For runners you can use the size of your choice, I would use probably size 5KB/KT runners.
Norm

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 29, 2017 09:53PM

Length of the rod doesn't matter. For any given reel/line/etc, the guide train would be the same and would have the same choker location. You'd just have more or less excess rod extending beyond the choke guide.

...............

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Sean Mitchell (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date: November 29, 2017 10:29PM

Ok thanks. I was wondering why the measurements were so off in the GPS using the KLH guides.

So when I use the KR GPS, it puts the choke point at 55.7" for a 3000 reel. 27x, and table top method, actually puts it closer at 49". Seems odd considering KR is saying they move the choke guide closer.

So traditional NGC layout......So, with the choke point. The choker guide is the same size as all the running guides, but not part of the reduction train, and the eye/ring is placed 27x the reel spool lip in front of the reel spool face itself. So if my choker, and running guides, are #6, do I need to then need to upsize my last reduction guide? Then when I run my string from the spool axis to the choker guide, do I align it with the TOP of the choker guide, on the blank where the choker guide is located or somewhere else?

Sorry for the rhetorical questions. I've read myself in circles on this.

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 29, 2017 11:20PM

Yes the KR GPS does put the choke guide a little further out than I would place it. I put the choke guide at approximately the same distance distance from the stripper as the distance from the spool tip to the stripper giving a a couple of inches due to rod length. So I would put put it at about 41 - 45”. Do not need to go larger than than the size 6KLM, even for size 6 runners, I used a size 5.5KLM for one of my salmon rods. But if you want a larger third reduction guide use one. As I have mentioned before I like to visualize the guide train by putting a reel on the rod and running the line through the taped on guides. I tie a light weight to the line and let it hang. I then press the line to the bottom of the spool and look for straight line from the bottom of the spool to the choke guide and another straight line from the choke guide to the tip top with the line touching the bottom of each guide. A slight angle of the line entering to stripper is ok. If you don’t want to use the bottom of the spool then push the line to the center of the spool. They both give the similar results except the angle of the line entering the stripper will be slightly different. Just a different way to get the same results. The layout I just described does do a rapid choke and gives you a rod that performs exceptionally well. If you have any doubts place the guides in various layouts and then take the rod out and test cast it. Test casting will let you know in a hurry what layout performs the best. I test cast every rod I build.
Here is a blog by Jim Ising that may help. [d19cgyi5s8w5eh.cloudfront.net] Hope it comes through.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2017 11:25PM by Norman Miller.

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 30, 2017 08:07AM

These different systems are not supposed to put the choke guide at the same location. They are based on different things. The table top method, in particular, is arbitrary and based on a factor that is largely irrelevant.

I align my guides so that a straight line from the spool center to the choke guide position, will run along the inside edge of the rings (furthest away from the rod). This will provide the smallest, lightest guides that still retain outstanding casting characteristics.

.................

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: November 30, 2017 10:07AM

Good advise here but Sean you mention the close spacing between the 8 and the 7. I'm thinking maybe you have the 8M and 7M rather than the 8M and 7L. The 8M, 7L should space nicely.

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Sean Mitchell (---.static.twtelecom.net)
Date: November 30, 2017 12:44PM

There is a LOT of rod building experience chiming in. I greatly appreciate it.

Tom, that choke guide explanation helped. I was always unsure whether you run your straight line/edge to the choker point on the guide, or on the top edge of the guide. Sounds like its neither and actually to the top inside ID of the ring. I've spent a lot time making adjustments to try compare.

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 30, 2017 01:45PM

The minute differences such as that aren't really going to make much practical difference. Do your best but try not to get too caught up in a quarter of an inch here or there.

...............

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: November 30, 2017 05:07PM

Sean, I think I read about a thousand posts to get the info you just got from these guys! Gotta love em'

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Sean Mitchell (---.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
Date: November 30, 2017 09:42PM

Indeed, some great information. Makes me feel like more of a bonehead for not really understanding. For KR, the KR GPS calls for a 55" choke point and it really only seems to look right with the 20, 10, 5.5 reduction. The 25, 12, 6 just doesn't look right. Plus, if the 25 stripper guide is supposed to be at 20-21" and then the choker guide is 20-21" beyond the stripper, that just makes for some weird spacing when I check the heights.

So is the KR GPS right or is putting the choker the same distance beyond the stripper as the stripper is beyond the reel stem? It kind of looks like maybe a traditional NGC is better suited for a 25 stripper guide and 40lb braid??

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.86.---)
Date: November 30, 2017 10:51PM

If it looks good it's probably set up incorrectly lol, don't feel bad about being confused , i am still experimenting and adjusting and test casting daily and i'm still not satisfied . No doubt many offer great advice here but every individual is different and what they love you may hate. Make sure you're satisfied with the end result even if others disagree and think you're nuts .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2017 10:52PM by herb canter.

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 30, 2017 11:14PM

Go with the 20 KLH stripper! As I mentioned previously the the size 20 KLH should be sufficient for both rods with the reels you are using. I suggested the 25KLH because the larger diameter ring might aid in controlling the line coils from the heavier stiffer line. This would be especially relevant if using mono. Because of the additional height of the 25KLH you can bring it closer to reel and push everything else a little further out, but you may not need the 25KLH train. Using the 25 reduction train would add weight but might improve casting performance. It's what one might call a trade off. Also it should be noted that the KR GPS gives you a good starting point, but it is not the final word. It is more like a suggestion and gets you in the right ball park. It is a computer program that is based on a series algorithms dependent on the input given and it gives you a generalized output, but it does not test its output for optimum performance for each rod, reel and line combinations. That what you do! There is a lot of leeway in setting up a guide train. What you are looking for is a nice line flow through the guides when casting and the line nicely following the curve of the rod when fighting a fish.The more experience you get the easier it become, and the best way to learn is to experiment and test and then retest. Do not take anything as gospel until you verify it. Does be afraid to follow your instincts, if it does look right it’s probably not.
Norm

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: December 01, 2017 10:59AM

"Don't be afraid to follow your instincts, if it doesn't look right it's probably not"....your starting to type like me, Norm.

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: December 01, 2017 11:19AM

You are right Jim. Thanks ! If it doesn’t look right it’s probably not @#$& spell check,
Norm

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Re: NGC/KR Help on 9'6" to 10'6" 4 Reduction Guides?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: December 01, 2017 02:28PM

All I want for x-mas is a Gps that allows me to select a stripper and gives me a layout with recommended guides and positioning from there out! (lol) Some would call me lazy, and some would be right. Happy Holidays all.

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