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KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.100.---)
Date: November 08, 2017 05:46PM

Hello everybody , i wanted to get some opinions on which way to go in the dilemma i'm facing , i am used to using LC guides but went with KW's this time .

The blank is a CTS 12 foot S-8 surf rod and i chose to go with a KW 30 - 25- 20- 12 ( All double foot) to one ( Single foot ) KT 10 and then KT 8's on out. Using the 27 X method and table edge alignment the choker lands at 80 inches . Now that 80 inch choker spot happens to land exactly on my KW 12 last reduction guide location .
Just having a hard time determining if i should switch the double foot KW 12 and replace it with a KT 10 single foot or leave it and consider it the choker , the KW 12 does match the table alignment better as far as height but there's not a huge difference between it and the KT 10 in height or ring size.



Spool diameter is 76 mm and from the extended spool shaft to the top of the KW 30 ring is 38 inches which is very close to the ferrule. The table edge alignment places it there as the best location to start as it and the other reduction guides line up perfectly with the table edge. When running a light string attached to the extended spool axle to the top of the choker guide all reduction guides before it also have the taught line barely touching the top of each reduction guide.

Static testing looks very good either way when using the two line method for the testing as found in the Library .




Thank you

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: November 08, 2017 07:17PM

Neither of those guides is your choker guide, the 8 mm is, the choker is the first guide in the guide reduction train that is the same size as all the other guides that go after.

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.100.---)
Date: November 08, 2017 08:36PM

Thanks for the response, i considered eliminating the KT 10 for the KT 8 as the choker but the KW 12 is right where the choker fits in this specific reduction train which is my dilemma . I would have to scrap the whole reduction train which fits the 27 X and table edge method perfectly to put the KT 8 where those methods say it generally should be located should it be the choker guide .

I was never a " I must follow Fuji's method precisely" kind of guy , they say the choker must be the same size as the other running guides and thats fine , i say using a KT 10 instead of a KT 8 which still chokes the line down allowing the same thing seems A OK as well .

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: November 08, 2017 08:53PM

Nothing is engraved in stone and slight manipulation of your lay out will have little effect on the performance of the rod. Still I always test cast all my rods, before I build them.

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 08, 2017 09:20PM

You could also rethink your reduction train and use three guides instead of the four guides you are planning on using. Could use KW 30, 25, 16 (or KW12M). This should give you a good reduction train based on guide heights. Your running guides could all be the same size, either KT10 or 8. Place your guides in position static test via the two line method and test cast to see how it performs. [anglersresource.net]
Hope this helps.
Norm

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.100.---)
Date: November 08, 2017 09:39PM

Thanks for the suggestions gentlemen , i will take a peak at the 30, 25 , 16 or KW 12 M suggestion , that may help shorten the train a bit . I could also just put the KT 8 where the KW 12 is currently and just scrap the double foot KW 12 altogether or just put the slightly larger KT 10 where the KW 12 was . What a PITA this stuff is.




My spinning reel is a large spool diameter distance casting reel , Shimano Aero Technium , i originally was starting off with the KW 30 L but since my reel has a considerably larger spool diameter than say a Shimano Sustain 8000 series reel i went with the KW 30 high frame which lines up perfectly with the table edge method but it sits at 38" away . I wonder if moving that high framed stripper guide closer to the reel would provide any benefit , i suppose better fish fighting ability but unsure if casting distance will be negatively effected .

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 08, 2017 10:08PM

If you are using braid you certainly can push the stripper a little closer to the reel. 38” from the reel does seem a little long, but then again you are using a large reel on a long rod. It seems like you have thing figured out pretty well. I think you will solve your problem by using 3 guides in your reduction train vs 4. As a general rule of thumb the choker guide is place about 2X the distance as the stripper from the reel spool. So 38” for the stripper and 80” for the choke are pretty close to this rule of thumb. Test cast and see how it performs. You can certainly tweak a little. As Spencer noted nothing is engraved in stone and there is quite a bit of flexibility in laying out a guide train.
Norm
PS - if you want to have the stripper closer to the reel you could try another reduction train using a larger stripper, for example KW40, 30L, and 16. Could still use the same runners. As another rule of thumb for a given reel, the larger the stripper the closer to the reel it can be, and the converse being the smaller the stripper the further away it needs to be.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2017 10:20PM by Norman Miller.

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 08, 2017 10:55PM

If you're using the 27X factor, then you're not using the table edge method. They are not the same thing.

The choke guide and first running guide are the same size, if that makes things clearer.

.............

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.100.---)
Date: November 08, 2017 11:13PM

Yes, i understand . the table edge method seems to be the NGC way and the 27 X method seems to just be a great way to determine the area where the choke will most likely be located on most reduction train setups. I think thats where the confusion came in , i was using the table edge method to line up the guides but remembering the 27 X method for where the choke guide should be located.

If i use the table edge method i need to adjust my choke guide accordingly because it will most likely be different than where the 27 X method tells you it should end up, thanks Tom.

Norm , no way i'm going with a KW 40 size ring as i mostly use light braid and 30 is the max size i would be willing to go with , i had to bite my lip with choosing the KW 30 since i would prefer a 25 but it doesn't have the height for my reel spool size unfortunately . If i was a heavy braid or mono user that would be different but thats not the case .

Your comment ( As a general rule of thumb the choker guide is place about 2X the distance as the stripper from the reel spool. So 38” for the stripper and 80” for the choke are pretty close to this rule of thumb) is why i posted about this since that fourth reduction guide does land where the choker should be placed . I guess i will try a KT 8 where the KW 12 was initially .

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 09, 2017 12:25AM

I also do not like larger diameter guides. The reason I suggested the 3 guide reduction train is to do exactly that, to put your choke guide (first runner) where you had the KW 12 placed. Another way to reduce the size of your stripper is to reduce the size of your reel. This will not only allow for a smaller stripper but also allow for it to be placed closer to the reel. Like I said a lot of flexibility in laying out a guide train. Your large reel will hold a lot of 30# braid, probably more than you will ever need. I suspect you are using some mono backing for your braid, so by using a smaller reel you can hold just as much braid but with out the backing. Today’s reels are very well built and smaller reels have maximum drag settings better than most larger older style reels. Because braid is very flexible, when compared to mono, it comes off the spool very smoothly enabling it to be used very effectively on smaller reels. So the combination of a smaller reel with braid and a smaller reduction train will make the overall outfit much lighter, making casting more enjoyable and less work, but still enabling long casts.

Norm

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.100.---)
Date: November 09, 2017 12:59AM

I understand exactly what you're talking about Norm , i used 8000 size spools for many years and they cast exceptionally well especially with lighter braids . I much prefer spinners with worm drive oscillation so when i got the chance to pick up Shimano's Aero Technium which wraps 100 feet of line per every full up and down oscillation cycle i jumped on it . It's the perfect choice reel for a fast action 12 foot spinner , the Penn 7500 LC is also a great casting reel although too heavy imo , it wraps 50 feet of line per every full up /down oscillation cycle .

I don't even spool with 30 pound braid , most of the time 20 pound braid or under , the only thing that proved too much for it was a large shark but it's much much stronger and more capable than the vast majority of fisherman give it credit for.

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: November 09, 2017 08:50AM

Herb,
I personally don't get hung up on choker guides or other named guides.
I would simply put a size 30 guide at 25 inches, then, go down to a size 20 and then down to size 12 for the rest of the guides including a size 12 tip. Place the guides where needed to get a nice smooth line flow with no extreme gaps between the line and the blank when the rod is loaded. If you have a gap, move or add a guide. If you have too many guides, move or delete a guide.

Good luck

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: November 09, 2017 11:15AM

Put the 8 where the 12 is and reposition the 25 and 16 to work (bullseye) from the 30 to the choke. Tape and test. The other (way more costly) option is the RV25 as a stripper. It will give you the height of the 30 in a smaller ring.

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.100.---)
Date: November 09, 2017 02:08PM

Jim Ising Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Put the 8 where the 12 is and reposition the 25
> and 16 to work (bullseye) from the 30 to the
> choke. Tape and test. The other (way more costly)
> option is the RV25 as a stripper. It will give you
> the height of the 30 in a smaller ring.


Thanks Jim , i ordered a KW 16 and will try it when it comes in . Why Fuji still does not have a stainless framed RV in Alconite is beyond me ,i understand it's about $$ but c'mon it's been years now .

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.100.---)
Date: November 09, 2017 02:18PM

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Herb,
> I personally don't get hung up on choker guides or
> other named guides.
> I would simply put a size 30 guide at 25 inches,
> then, go down to a size 20 and then down to size
> 12 for the rest of the guides including a size 12
> tip. Place the guides where needed to get a nice
> smooth line flow with no extreme gaps between the
> line and the blank when the rod is loaded. If you
> have a gap, move or add a guide. If you have too
> many guides, move or delete a guide.
>
> Good luck


Twenty five inches huh , wow thats close but willing to try it all . I have tried a few different size tiptops and a 12 size ring is a no go for me , tried a 10 size ring and that was also a no go for this particular rod . I settled on a size 8 ring (9 tube size ) which is the perfect size and doesn't look overly large on this build like the others do. MNAT style and no problem with terminal gear .

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.106.---)
Date: November 16, 2017 08:55PM

OK i got the KW 16 in and reworked a few things as Jim suggested , i now have a 3 guide reduction train which is a 30 - 25 - 16 with the choker size 8 where the KW 12 used to be . I do get the bullseye from the 30 to the 8 . My only question is the distance between the 30 and 25 is 15 3/4 inches , the distance between the 25 and 16 is 17 inches .

A static test showed that there was NO sharp bends in that portion of the rod .

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 17, 2017 05:22PM

There is no problem moving guides a little here and a little there. Get your stripper and choke where you want them and progressively place.the other two guides between them. If needed you can push the stripper and/or choke guide a little in or out. There is a lot of leeway in placing guides. What I do to get a good visual of my layout is to tape the guides in place mount your reel and run your line through the guides. Tie a small weight to your line and let it hang from the tip. Now press the line to the bottom of the reel spool and look at how it goes through the guides. What you are looking for is a straight line from the bottom of the spool to the choke guide and another straight line from the choke to the tip top with the line touching the bottom of each guide. A slight angle going into the stripper is ok. Adjust everything accordingly , then test cast. I find this a lot easier and more accurate for me to do then visualizing a bulls eye. Try it and see how it works.
Norm

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.106.---)
Date: November 17, 2017 08:13PM

Thanks Norm , i understand you can move things around if you have to however my goal was to get an ideal reduction train from my original 4 guide train 30-25-20-12 down to a choker of size 8 but following the 27 X rule my KW 12 landed exactly where the choker should be placed so then others suggested a 3 guide reduction train would be better .

I removed the KW 20 and ordered a KW 16 so i could have a 30-25-16 to the KT 8 choker which now fits where the KW 12 previously was and looks very good . What i wanted to know is, is it common for the distance between the 25 and 16 being at 17 inches compared to the KW 30 to the 25 being at 15 1/2 inches relatively common because every rod i have seen has guides that have a slightly shorter distance between them not longer.

I get a straight line with the KW 25 and KW 16 being further away from each other than the KW 30 to the KW 25 distance between guides .


Thanks for your comments

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 17, 2017 09:20PM

It sounds like the ideal guide to have used for your third transition guide might have been the 12M which is higher than the 16 but shorter than a 20. However, the 12M only comes in a titanium frame. Because the 16 is a little shorter than the 12M it would theoretically need to go a little further out to get the straight line. A size 20 would have been little too tall to get a straight line going into the choke guide and would require the choke to be moved further out. If anything I would rather move the choke closer to the reel to more rapidly choke the line. So I think the 16 is a very good compromise. Although I like progressive spacing, it is not necessary. Another thing to try is to bring the stripper a little closer to the reel, like I mentioned a little bit of an angle of the line going into the stripper is ok, especially if using braid, in fact it may even help a little. The ultimate test is to cast the rod. You will know right away whether or not you get a nice smooth line flow through the guides. Remember the position of the stripper and choke guides are not locked in stone. The 27X method is more of a suggestion to get you close, rather than being a hard and fast rule that must be adhered to.The KR concept has shown that the choke pt can be moved much closer to the reel and enhance casting distance and rod performance.
Norm

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Re: KW reduction guide lands where choker should be.
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.106.---)
Date: November 17, 2017 09:43PM

Thanks Norm , the stripper is a 30 so i don't see a problem moving it a tad closer to the reel if needed and i don't mind an inch and a half difference between the 25 and 16 if it's going to provide the best performance which it probably will since that is the spacing that gives the perfect bullseye line path .


I looked into the 12 M and i would be willing to go with it if i found one with an Alconite ring but i only see Torzite now so forget that.


Your comment :

Press the line to the bottom of the reel spool and look at how it goes through the guides. What you are looking for is a straight line from the bottom of the spool to the choke guide and another straight line from the choke to the tip top with the line touching the bottom of each guide.

is a little confusing to me , what i did was run a string from the extended spool shaft to the top of the choker and make sure the line touches the very bottom of each reduction train guide along the way , this is with the rod upside down with the reel attached but the spool removed and the line attached to the spool shaft.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2017 10:22PM by herb canter.

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