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Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Randy Weakley (47.150.16.---)
Date: October 09, 2017 12:28PM

So I used a NGC layout on a rod I'm worki on and got a decent layout. So I moved on to static test. I found a couple bends in line sharper than I'd like, but in order to get them smooth, I'd have to really crowd the guides. I'm using KW guides, and have every size to work with. 30/25/20/12 with 8 runners seemed to work best. The blank is an RCLB70M.

I guess what I'm wondering is "how close is too close" for guides on a spinning reel? Specifically for the reduction train on a rod of this size and power.

Oh and one more thing. The sharp bends are more in the middle of the bend. I.e at the 3rd and 4th reduction guide rather than at the running guides. The way it's layer out now is 30/25/20/12/8/8/tip.

Thanks

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: October 09, 2017 01:10PM

because it is a spinning rod and most likely you will never have it bent at a 90 I would just load it up at a 45 degree angle and see what you have for line lay angles through the guides.
you could easily add another 8 runner with out any problem as it is a 7 ft blank

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 01:28PM by Matthew Paul.

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Randy Weakley (47.150.16.---)
Date: October 09, 2017 01:15PM

The guy expects to use about 13lbs of drag. And yeah I suppose I could, but that brings the choker in farther than I wanted to. Again, I don't need reduced spacing at the tip; the sharp angles are in the middle of the guide train.

Also there is around 14 inches of handle between the fighting butt and the rear grip. So less than 6' from front of reel to tip. Probably around 5' 6".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 02:20PM by Randy Weakley.

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: October 09, 2017 02:36PM

How long is the rod and how long is the rear grip?

.........

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: October 09, 2017 03:03PM

30/25/20/12/8/8/tip. to much difference between the 20 and 12 try a 16 0r a 14 and then a 10 and the 2 ,8's
would give you a 30-25-20-16/14, 8,8
or try 30-20 -16-12 -8-8-tip
hard to be exacting with out the total handle length from the butt to the reel face
if he is using braid you can eliminate the 30 and use a 25 -20- 16-12 -8-8 tip as the braid is more for giving with the cast as vs mono

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: October 09, 2017 04:15PM

It looks to me like there are too many different guide sizes involved. You should be able to do this with just four at most and three preferably. I can't really say without looking at the rod and having more specifics but a 30-20-12-8-8-8-8, provided you get a nice straight line path, might be your best bet. You didn't mention the line type and size, or the reel, so this is really hard to pin down without that information.


..................

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: October 09, 2017 07:57PM

Randy,
I don't get concerned about the choke point, or ngc spacing or xyz spacing. I just start from the tip and put a load on the tip, and put a guide on the blank at the first location where the guide bends. i.e. I just use 1/8th inch wide tape to mark the spot on the blank.
Then, I put more load on the blank and put the 2nd guide on the rod, where the blank is now bening. I continue this process until I am back to 20 inches from the reel seat where I normally place the butt guide.

I generally use a size 25, 16, 10, and then 6 runners to the tip as needed.

After taping the guides in place, I will put on a reel, run the line through the guides and load the blank and visually check for a uniform loading of the blank, with a constant distance of the line away from the blank. If needed, I may add, subtract a running guide or tweak the spacing of the guides as needed.

Once I have a final configuration for this particular blank, I record the spacing and guide sizes so that if I build on the same blank again, I will have a good starting point on the next build. `

If I have a very fast action blank, I may have the first two or three guides only 3 - 4 inches apart. Generally the spacing between the butt guide and the next guide is 12-15 inches depending on the particular blank.

By the way, on many blanks -- depending on the action of the blank, there may be a greater spacing between the tip of the rod and the first guide down from the tip, compared to the spacing between the 1st and 2nd guide as compared to the tip top to the first guide.
This used to bother me, and I would sometimes add an extra guide at the tip, but now, if the blank dictates the non need for a guide close to the tip - I will not put one at that spot.

Good luck

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Randy Weakley (---.mycingular.net)
Date: October 09, 2017 08:25PM

Thanks guys. To answer Tom's question, it is a 6000 Penn spinning reel. Can't recall the model, Battle or Conflict I think...it's at home. It will be used with braid (50-65 lbs I'd guess). I'll look into it, and see if I can get a good line flow with those. But the heights are pretty different. There is a 30 and a 30L. It's about a cm difference in height and another cm between the 30L and the 25.

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Randy Weakley (---.mycingular.net)
Date: October 09, 2017 08:25PM

Here's a picture I took showing the size of guides I'm using. These things dwindle in height pretty rapidly. I think going from 30 to 20 would be a little excessive. On a normal set of guides I absolutely would. But these just change way faster than most guides I've seen and used.

[www.rodbuilding.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 10:43PM by Randy Weakley.

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: October 09, 2017 10:48PM

Going from a 30 to a 20 would not be excessive and in fact, would likely be a better set up. You need to get the line under control quickly. Don't use every size just because they offer them - that's not how the NGC works. Note that the Microwave butt guide goes from a 30 or so to a 12 within a few mm. It works fine.

................

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Randy Weakley (47.150.16.---)
Date: October 09, 2017 10:56PM

Tom, I've read the article in my special edition Rodmaker CD and I've read your book. I understand the NGC (although I obviously haven't perfected its use). I used these because it gave me the straightest line flow without excessive guide spacing, not just because they are offered. I tried skipping the 25 because I usually go 25/16/10/6 (like Roger posted above) on my freshwater rods. But skipping the 25 on this layout left almost 20 inches in between the 30 and 20. Then about 6.5 inches to the 12. That's what I meant by excessive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 10:58PM by Randy Weakley.

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: October 10, 2017 07:49AM

Okay, if that's what it takes then that's what it takes. Have you plugged the numbers into the Anglers Resource online program to see what it will spit out? Might be worthwhile doing that just for comparison. Tape that one up and see if it looks more to your liking. If not, then back to where you are now.

............

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Randy Weakley (---.mycingular.net)
Date: October 10, 2017 10:22AM

Yeah, I have two of the same blank. Building one for me and one for a buddy. I'll look tonight and see how it looks going straight to the 20. Thanks for the help, Tom and Roger!

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dyn.centurytel.net)
Date: October 10, 2017 11:05AM

I agree with Tom. Your goal here should be getting the line down on the blank (3-guide reduction train) because you can then space runners where you need them to follow the bend. A quick reduction with sufficient runners should move some power into the lower section - which sounds like what you need.

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: brian rossi (---.mycingular.net)
Date: October 10, 2017 11:17AM

30,25,20,12,10's or 8's for runners is an optimal layout for 10'+ surf rods where you're trying to maximize casting. On a shorter rod especially if it's going to be used from a boat mainly dropping straight down you can choke faster like they are suggesting.

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: October 10, 2017 06:37PM

Jim Ising Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Tom. Your goal here should be getting
> the line down on the blank (3-guide reduction
> train) because you can then space runners where
> you need them to follow the bend. A quick
> reduction with sufficient runners should move some
> power into the lower section - which sounds like
> what you need.

I also totally agree with Tom and Jim But I think the problem is there are not enough between ring sizes and guides with the right heights. I have run across this same issue with spacing due to the correct choke point for a particular reel. I did not like the spacing, not necessarily because it did not work but because it looked bad..

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: bill boettcher (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: October 11, 2017 01:51PM

Here is a good pic of what is will tend to look like

[anglersresource.net]

Bill - willierods.com

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: October 11, 2017 08:48PM

Randy,
Just leave all of the guides that you have where they are, with the exception of the size 20. Just move it back toward the butt guide by 4-5 inches and I think you will be set.

Good luck

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: October 11, 2017 08:58PM

Randy,
Another tip that I learned from another builder after building rods for a couple of years is this.
I put the tip on the rod, - either permanent or temporary.
Mount the reel on the rod that you want to use.
Then, take the guide that you want to use for a butt guide and slip it onto the line. Then, run the line through the tip.
The object of this exercise is to rotate the reel, so that the line is as far from the reel as it will ever get - during a rotation of the line spool. Then, with the line held just tight, slide your butt guide up and down the rod, until the line just touches the inside of the bottom of the butt guide. Then, keeping the guide in this location, rotate the reel so that the line is as close to the rod as it will ever get. Now check to see where the line is running through the butt guide.

The goal of this exercise is to find a guide of a size and a height - such that with a straight line running between the tip of the rod and the reel, that the line effectively just brushes around the entire 360 degrees of the butt guide as the line is retrieved under light tension.

-----------------
The request for using this guide setup method was from a fisherman who was a big musky fisherman, who liked to use heavy duty spinning gear with 50-80 lb braid to cast heavy lures thousands of times a day.
He said, that by having the butt guide of a size and in the correct location to let the line freely slip through the butt guide at all times, without really rubbing against any portion of the butt guide, that his overall reeling effort was reduced considerably over the course of a thousand casts of heavy lures through the course of the day.

-------------------
After his request, I begin building all of my spinning guides that same way and I found that - indeed the reeling effort was reduced, and in fact casting distance increased a bit.

Give it a try, and see if it works for you.

Good luck

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Re: Another guide spacing thread *sorry*
Posted by: Randy Weakley (47.150.16.---)
Date: October 14, 2017 12:56AM

Tom, I finally got around to spacing out the guides with your suggestion. I was able to get a decent spacing by going from 30-20-8. This puts the reduction train at three guides. But to do so, I had to significantly bring in the choke point from where the reel spool angle would place it (per your book). It now more closely resembles the KR concept rather than the NGC. The exception being that the KR concept is designed for smaller rings on taller frames. These KW guides are made for NGC (per Angler's Resource). I would like to hear your thoughts on the using a 30-20-8 reduction train on a 20-50 lb rod with probably 40 lb braid. I will quote your book as to why I have doubts about this. From page 26 or Rod-Building Guide: "Depending on the size of the reel, the choke guide will usually be the fourth guide from the butt end. On very small ultra-light rods it may be the third guide, while on really large saltwater rods, it may be the fifth guide." I don't know if I'd classify this as "really large," but it's certainly not an ultralight.

I will post the heights so you can see why they this is. The height drops significantly in the larger sizes, and then the decrease slows down dramatically. So trying to put anything in between the 20 and the 8 results in a very small distance between the guides.

From 30 to 8 in order: 59.6, 41.2, 28.6, 21.2, 17.4, 14.6, 12.3.

With a little Excel magic and geometry, we can determine precise points where the guides will rest given a specific distance between the stripper and first reduction guide while keeping a straight line. If we assume 12 inches between the butt (30) and next guide (20), the options down the line are as follows (distance from the 20). You can see that the only real option here is to go straight to the 8.

16 - 2.86 inches
12 - 4.34 inches
10 - 5.42 inches
8 - 6.31 inches

Using the same formulas and allowing for 12 inches between the 30 and 25 gives a 4 guide reduction using 30-25-20-12, but forces me to make a transition from the choker (12) to running guides (8). The distances to each previous guide is as follows:

25 from 30 - 12 (arbitrarily set)
20 from 25 - 8.2 inches
16 from 20 - 4.8 inches
12 from 16 - 2.5 inches
10 from 12 - 1.8 inches
8 from 10 - 1.5 inches

leaving out the 16: 12 from 20 - 7.3 inches
leaving out the 16 and 12: 10 from 20 - 9.1 inches

So you can see the ideal is to go from 20 to 12, but this causes the line to change paths twice, once at the 12 and once at the 8. There is no way to get a straight line path without being excessively close or far at the small end of the reduction train. My Excel sheet proves what I did on the bench.

This was a very long winded post, I know, but if Tom could address what I asked in my first paragraph, I would be interested to hear his thoughts. Or any others that wish to chime in.

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