I've been reading old posts on this forum while thinking about this and other questions.

One suggestion struck my interest. Wire the tip to a solid surface, apply a pulling pressure to the blank and heat the tip with an alcohol lamp. If a lamp works, then why not a soldering iron? The iron would localize the heat and the instant the adhesive reached it's fail point, the rod would be released.

It worked like a charm. A freshly tinned, fully heated, 40 watt iron, applied to the metal shank of the tip only needed about three seconds to release. Much easier than I could even imagine.

And many thanks to Phil Langford who originally posted the idea.

Regards, Steve



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2017 08:22PM by Steve Delap.

Steve,
In addition, something that works even better is to use a larger rubber band and loop it through the tip of the rod. Then, hook the other end of the band on a nail and pull tight.

When heating the tip - just as soon as the adhesive gets loose; the tip will fly off with the minimum amount of heat applied.

Good luck

Use of a small, pencil-point electric soldering iron both to install and remove a tip-top greatly minimizes the possibility of damage to the rod blank which use of an open flame creates.

I like the convenience of using a flame to mount and remove tip tops. Been doing it this way for 48 yrs with no problems. By the time the soldering iron heats up you could remove dozens of tip tops, In my opinion, the best way to mount or remove a tip top is the any way that works for you.
Norm

the hot melt ones are a piece of cake no matter what method. Epoxy, on the other hand, presents a real balancing act. What's your favorite method for removing an epoxied tiptop?

Same way, heat but lost of pull tension!

I personally never install tip tops with any type of epoxy, but I have removed tip tops that have been epoxied in placed. I still heat with a flame while rotating and pull extra hard till the epoxy bond breaks down. As a general rule, fast set (1-5 min) epoxies breaks down quicker and at a lower temperature than slower set epoxies. In my opinion, hot melt tip top adhesives are the best and easiest way to go for installing tip tops with the least amount of problems.
Norm

I never use the hot melt glue, except for an emergency kit I bring along when fishing so I can at least stay in the game (used it in Alaska last month to reset a tip on a fly rod...twice). I find it not durable enough. That said on both factory rods and custom, my technique is the same: I use a clean flame bic lighter to heat the tip tube, and when I hear the gentle pop accompanied by rising smoke, its time to pull off the tip top with a pair of needle nose pliers. Just a gentle pull straight out. I never touch the blank where the tip was until after it has cooled well.

What types of failure have you experienced with hot melt glue? I have used hot-melt glue to secure tip-tops and arrowheads since the days when stick-shellac was the only hot melt glue available, and I don't recall any failures.

Phil: I've had poor luck with hot melt over the years but still carry a stick of it in my emergency repair kit. I use the old fashioned pine smelling resin stuff that you heat with a match. For example, last month while salmon fishing in AK, I had a tip pop off a factory rod and I used the hot melt only to have it fail after a few casts. Tried again to reset it, still it failed. So I just switched to a different rod and epoxied the tip on the failed on once I got back to my workshop.... Time before that was long range fishing out of SoCal... Happily as a rod builder I always manage to have a spare rod handy, but IMO that's not a reason to give the hot glue a pass.

Get the flex coat hot melt adhesive, works great, I have never had any failures using it. A double stick package of it is almost a life time supply.
Norm

I never use epoxy and have not had a hot melt failure. I think the most likely cause of one would be insufficient glue, either because it was stripped off by a very tight fitting tiptop or operator error in not applying enough. I have heard of rods inside closed cars in very hot climates losing the tiptops due to extreme heat.

The epoxy matrix in a rod blank begins to soften at 140 degrees F. and deforms at 500 degrees F. Hot melt glues melt around 380 F. A candle flame burns at 1,000 F., a methanol flame burns at 3,398 F, an ethanol flame burns at 3,488 F., a butane flame burns at 3,500 degrees. The peak temperatures of open flames are reached almost instantly. These are demonstrated facts, not opinions. Draw your own conclusions about the best heat source to remove or replace tip-tops.

If it "softens" at 140 F and "deforms" at 500F, what is to prevent the softened material from deforming at 141 F if a little force is applied? Unless I am not interpreting softening and deforming correctly, this seems to make no sense. I would like to see your data.


Which part of the candle's flame is at 1000 F? The blue, orange, yellow or red?

thanks

[hypertextbook.com]

The data is not "mine". Go to: [www.systemthree.com] - see the listed "maximum service temperature" Of course there are many different types of epoxy and their service temperatures vary somewhat, but none come anywhere near 1,000 degrees F. - the temperature of the blue part of a candle flame. All this objective information is available on line from a wide variety of sources.

My response is to Norm, thanks for the tip on the flex coat tip adhesive. I'll upgrade the emergency kit, and toss the pine resin stuff from...1960 something. On a parallel track, I discovered the newer fly like treatments this year, and put aside the old Cortland 333 conditioner in the little flat tin can. Progress I guess.... :)

Hot melt glues are not epoxies, they are thermoplastics, and will melt from 248 to 358 degrees F. It isn't as important the temperature of the heat source, if you apply it for the proper amount of time to the tip top.
Example; you can use a butane lighter (3500 degrees) and apply it only long enough to melt the hot melt.

If you use the method that Roger suggests, having a constant tension on the tip, it should release as soon as the adhesive reaches the melting temperature,

I use Flex Coat tip top adhesive and have not had any failures that I am aware of, nor have I had blank tip damage from using this method to remove tip tops.

Some builders are also now using "instant glue" (CA) for tip tops. It also is removed with heat.

Phil Ewan, the site you offer is nothing but a spec sheet for a single epoxy product. It has nothing to do with a blank's temperature tolerance.

As Phil Eric points out hot melts are not epoxy and are not all the same. Stating that hot melts melt at around 358 is like saying cars go 120 mph. Some do, some don't. I'm not even sure that all blank materials can take the same temperature without risk. Some may be more tolerant than others, and the data do not clarify this question. There is nothing in what you offer to substantiate your numbers of 140 and 500F. And I still wonder how a blank can "soften" without being damaged. "Soften" and "deform" are such subjective describers that without proper context are of no value. We know from wide experience that graphite blanks can take about 212F, but where are the data saying you can take them into the 500F range? Your numbers imply that you think they can be, but you offer nothing in support of this. Following this advice will very likely cost one a blank.

A leading US blank maker stated to a builder friend of mine, in response to a direct question about how hot a graphite blank can get without damage, stated that if you take it up to about 240-250F, you are in the "danger zone." While this advice is not completely descriptive, it's better than anything else I've seen on the topic.

And it implies that the removal of epoxied tiptops is a balancing act of getting the epoxy hot enough to compromise its grip without getting the blank hot enough to damage it.

You can "take" an epoxy to any temperature, 500F, 8,000 F. , or higher, but the system three epoxy cited the maximum service temperature of their product is 165 degrees. Using a 1,000 or 3,500 degree flame it doesn't take very long to heat 1/64 oz. of metal to 165 degrees, but it takes skill and discipline which I lack. That's why I use a pencil-point soldering iron to attach and make fine adjustments to tip-tops using hot-melt glue - but to each his own.