Have lived a charmed rod building life - no rod failures in over 20+ years until now. See the link below.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

The picture in the link above is the failure point of a 4 piece, 12 weight fly rod that broke about mid point of the forward (the third) stripping guide foot, which was about 4" below the tip of the mid butt section. Guides were initially located per the manufacturer's recommendation then only marginally tweaked after static load tests.

The circumstances of the failure were this the first trip out for the rod which had previously only been test cast, the fish was most probably a jack of unknown size, and the fisherman was an experienced salt water fly fisherman. A charter captain was observing the fisherman and advised the rod was not "high sticked", that were was about 200' of line and backing beyond the tip, and the water depth was 10' to 15'. Not the classic makings for a high stick, but not impossible either.

The rod manufacturer promptly replaced the failed mid point section under warranty but declined to express an opinion regarding the cause of the failure.

I can think of multiple causes for the failure with the three more probable being guide failure that caused the blank to fail, excessively tight guide wrap, or the blank had a critical flaw not detected during the build. The guides were quality, solid titanium guides and I've got to think it a lower probability the guide failed. I've been doing the rod building thing for a while, know better than to use excessive thread tension, and don't think I did. The blank is from a well known manufacturer whose blanks I have used for more than a few rods without issue.

Believing foolishness is doing the same thing repeated and expecting a different result, I have built up the replacement mid butt section using another brand of titanium guides using and under wrap, and did another load test before wrapping the new guides.

The question remains, what happened? I built the rod so whatever was the cause of the failure it's on me. But sure would like to know what really happened. Your thoughts?

Donald,
It looks like a clean break with no signs of previous damage.

I would just chalk it up to 20+ years of clean living and now having to give one back.

Or, as the saying goes - stuff happens.

Enjoy.

Be safe

Did someone grab the and pulled where the rod broke ?

I think Michael is asking if someone reached up and supported the blank at that point. I did that with an 8 wt and the break was much messier than this one. It was almost as if the blank "exploded." I don't think that was the cause of this failure.

With this clean a break I think it may be a rod defect and that the guide failure was secondary. The defect could be in the blank from the manufacturer, or it could be that the blank was scratched by the foot of the guide, or a sharp tool mistakenly contacting (fairly heavily contacting) the blank before wrapping. Since it is right at the guide, I think damage from something hitting the blank would be unlikely. Too tight wrapping seems unlikely if you are fairly experienced and already recognize the issue. Wouldn't it have to be really tight to induce this failure in an otherwise undamaged blank?

There is a person who probably knows better than we and he will probably chime in.

Roger: I assure you good clean living is not in play for me! That stuff happens is always a possibility.

Michael: I don't understand your question. If the sections had been previously stuck and pulled apart by twisting then it is possible the blank was damaged. No way for me to know that. If it the heat of the moment might line have been stripped between the second and third guides I don't know but think it improbable given the distance from the grip and fighting grip to the stripping guides.

Yet another possibility is the rod was lined with line outside the third stripping guide. This too seems improbable yet we've all done it. Nonetheless, if the line was outside the third stripping guide and the rod was well under load you would expect the failure in about the location it failed.

Maybe Roger has hit the nail on the head - stuff happens.

When I looked at your picture, the first thought I had was that the bottom of the guide had not been prepped and a rough protrusion had cut into the blank which could have weakened the rod blank at that point. Other than a defect in the blank I can not think think of another reason. Good luck with figuring this out

Mike Blomme

Michael D: The rod is a 9', 4 piece with fighting butt, 7" full Wells main grip and a 6' fighting grip 3" forward of the main grip. A fellow would really have to reach out to grab the blank instead of the grips. So, yes, a hand forward of the fighting grip would be a bad thing, but I'd like to think an experienced charter captain would have noted that and quickly corrected his client. And by the way, I did correspond with the blank manufacturer before installing a fighting grip as I was curious whether a fore or fighting grip might have an adverse impact and was advised the manufacturer had previously built the same rod with a fore or fighting grip.

Donald, from the looks of the guide and the spot of the break, my guess is that the guide snapped at the bend in the foot under load, and that sharp edge nicked the blank enough to cause the breakage.

I once had a titanium guide break under load like the one on the picture, however the blank did not fali. But I suspect Phil might be correct in his assessment. Of course it it difficult to tell which failed first, the guide or the blank, but I think that if the guide had not failed the rod would still be intact. I have noticed that titanium frames tend to be a little more fragile than stainless frames. Can't tell if the failed guide in the picture is titanium or not.
Norm

Don, I tend to agree with Phil. Why such a tall guide at that location and what size is that guide anyway?

Dennis J. Danku
(Sayreville,NJ)

Phil & Norman: Guide failure that significantly nicked the blank was my first thought after being assured no high sticking was involved. When I flex the failed section (what's remaining) and push the remaining part of the guide forward (it's bent ever so slightly backward) the guide break does match the point of failure. On the other hand, if the blank failed due to a blank flaw I would not expect a guide to hang together.

Dennis: Guides were a 16, 12, and 10 strippers, then a #5 snake followed by #4 snakes to a large loop tip top. Could have reduced guide sizes further, but wanted to give ample room for knots / connection passage.

Don, Your sizes are OK,I just think you could have got away with only two strippers on a 9'.

Dennis J. Danku
(Sayreville,NJ)

Dennis: Yep, 2 strippers would work and be a little lighter in the bargain. Many of the "name" rods now have 3 strippers on a 12 weight and above. If nothing else the rod cast like a dream come true - that is before the current nightmare.

The location of a break in a rod caused by an angler "high sticking" depends upon the placement of the angler's upper (non-reeling) hand. A rod will not break below this point from high sticking.
A break in "solid titanium" guide, even a titanium alloy guide, seems like an extremely remote possibility.

I arrived at my conclusion about the guide breakage because of the type of break in the blank. It is a straight break, of type caused by impact or nick. If it were a shattering type of break there would be longitudinal evidence.

This does not rule out a defect at the break point, but most of them usually show some longitudinal shattering.

my vision is so bad but those wraps in the picture look so short and don,t cover the toe of the guide foot..is that just me..

Ben: The wraps are short. I lock down with 4 wraps and the 5th starts the climb up the guide foot toe. The wrap appears to be especially short because it was essentially torn in half.

Stuff happens, but there is a technical reason for every rod failure.

I agree that with the long foregrip fighting grip that it is unlikely that reaching out is the cause. My failure caused by that was nothing like this failure.

The fact that the guide is bent back is significant. If the guide were defective and simply broke and nicked the blank would it be bent back like that? I don't think so. The load on the guide would have been relieved by the fracture long before plastic deformation took place. This guide broke not a a weld where a defect might be expected, but in the exact place you would expect it to break if it were attached to the blank by very strong wraps and the blank broke between the legs. If the leg failure were the primary failure I believe there would be an obvious defect visible at the guide fracture point. And that has not been reported. I expect careful examination of the geometry on both sides of the failure will reveal that the leg was bent.

The back bend of the guide would be expected if the rod broke between the feet of the guide. The guide would first flex elastically, then it would yield (bending it back), and and finally it would break AFTER having been severely bent. Think of the upper ring part of the guide, the part above the guide fracture, and ask yourself how it could be bent that far, exceeding yield strength of the double legs. The force to do that would have to be applied by the lower part of the single guide leg, and the only way for that lower part (the single leg) to put the upper part into the yielded position would be if it were moved such a long distance that the blank would have to have been broken first to allow that distance.

Keep in mind that at some time in the fracturing of the guide leg, the lower fracture point of the single leg had to be in the same position as the upper fracture point of the single leg. How could that be if the blank were not already broken?

I think the blank is the primary failure. Due to what? Damage or defect, I don't know. But the only way that guide could be plastically deformed like it is is for the blank to have broken first.

Sorry for the length of the post, but I found it hard to explain in the detail necessary for others to understand the principals I was working on.

If you can take a reasonably crisp photo of the break at about a 45 degree angle showing the inside of the break as well as the outside, I can tell you how it broke and why.

..................

Tom: Thank you in advance. Posted additional pictures; links below.

There are shadows and flash glare that look like the graphite splintered well beyond the break. It's an illusion.

The missing portion of the wrap and guide foot were not returned to me. Suspect they are under 10' of gulf coast water.

Thanks again.


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