I
nternet gathering place for custom rod builders
  • Custom Rod Builders - This message board is provided for your use by the sponsors listed on the left side of the page. Feel free to post any question, answers or topics related in any way to custom building. When purchasing products please remember those who sponsor this board.

  • Manufacturers and Vendors - Only board sponsors are permitted and encouraged to promote and advertise products on the board. You may become a sponsor for a nominal fee. It is the sponsor fees that pay for this message board.

  • Rules - Rod building is a decent and rewarding craft. Those who participate in it are assumed to be civilized individuals who are kind and considerate in their dealings with others. Please respond to others in the same fashion in which you would like to be responded to. Registration IS NOW required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting. Posts which are inflammatory, insulting, or that fail to include a proper name and email address will be removed and the persons responsible will be barred from further participation.

    Registration is now required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting.
SPONSORS

2018 Expo
Common Cents Info
CCS Database
Int. Custom Rod Symbol
All American Guides
American Tackle
Angler’s Roost
Anglers Rsrc - Fuji
Anglers Workshop
BatsonRainshadowALPS
Bingham Enterprises
Canada Rodbuildersupply
CRB
Cork4Us
CTS Rod Blanks
CTS MAVEN
Custom Fly Grips LLC
Custom Labeling System
DBlue Fishing
Decal Connection
Flex Coat Co.
Get Bit Outdoors
HYDRA
Janns Netcraft
Mickels Custom Rods
Mudhole Custom Tackle
MHX Rod Blanks
Pacific Bay
ProProducts
Reelseatblanks.com
Renzetti Inc.
Rocky Mountain Rod Shop
Rod Components USA
Rodgeeks
RodMaker Magazine
RodMaker Magazine Blog
Schneiders Rod Shop
SeaGuide Corp.
St Croix Rods
Tackleworks
The Rod Room
Trondak U-40
Utmost Enterprises
VisualWRAP/VisualWEAVE
ZipCast

Pages: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2
Thread Unraveling... (UPDATED WITH VIDEO)
Posted by: Kelly Dow (---.lightspeed.renonv.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 01:39AM

Me...yet again. So I started practicing my thread wraps today and I'm having an issue with unraveling. I just grabbed an old spinning rod and some size D ProWrap thread and started playing around with the CRB Hand Wrapper I just received. I can get the thread started and finished no prob, and it looks good too, no large gaps, etc. but as soon as I touch the thread with my finger or burnishing tool, the whole thing unravels from the end where I use the pull-through. I've tried varying degrees of tension on the Hand Wrapper but nothing is making a difference. At one point the damn tension indicator on the CRB (basically a rod tip) was almost touching the base I had so much tension, didn't matter. I tried a couple different techniques for the pull through method but nothing makes a difference. I probably made 10 test wraps and every one unraveled. I'm fairly confident I'm doing the starting wraps and ending wraps (for the pull-through) correctly as I'm copying straight from tutorial videos. Sometimes I'd try 5 or 6 x-wraps on my starting wrap before I cut the tag and then I'd do 10+ wraps over the pull through loop before I pulled it just to make sure I had enough...no dice...still unravels. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG!?!?

I found this thread with someone having similar issues but no real resolution other than, "not enough tension." I put so much tension on that CRB Wrapper, I can't imagine it's too little:

[rodbuilding.org]

THOUGHTS/SUGGESTIONS? As per usual any help is greatly appreciated!!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2017 02:21PM by Kelly Dow.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Jason Reddick (---.int.bellsouth.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 06:12AM

When I started not too long ago I had the same thing happen. My solution was to put the pull-through loop in a lot earlier than what the videos say. I think I leave about 1/4 inch between the cut tag end and the end of the main wrap. For guide wraps, insert the pull loop on the opposite side of the blank as the guide foot - not on the side, not the foot itself. This is so the main wrap is cinched down over the tag end directly to the blank. If its on the side, your tag end could be threaded through or near the "tunnel" they talk about when applying the epoxy, and so won't experience the tension it needs to stay in place.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 15, 2017 08:08AM

The tie-off loop needs to be inserted about 7 or so revolutions from the end of the wrap.

............

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: May 15, 2017 08:30AM

Kelly, I know your frustration, and that you're looking for better answers than you found in the thread you posted the link to, but really, that thread contains the answers to cure your problem.

I don't use one of the tension rods you mentioned, so I'm not familiar with how much tension it takes to bend one to the degree you're evidently experiencing. I can tell you that when I am wrapping the guides near the tip of a rod, or the wrap at the tip top, that the tension on the thread is enough to bend the tip of a medium heavy power bass rod. And that is with having a rod stand positioned about 5" from the tip of the rod.

Now for all I know that may be more tension than others use. I only mention it to illustrate that while you may think you have an extremely high amount of tension on your thread, you may not have as much as you think. Hopefully someone that uses the same wrapper that you use will chime in and give you an idea of how their tension rod responds to the thread tension they use.

I can tell you what I would do if I were using the wrapper you are. First if your wrapper doesn't already have it, I would try and fashion some way to keep the rod from spinning easily if you were take your hand off it while wrapping. If you look at Mud Hole's web site under hand wrappers, you'll see the Flex Coat and the Pac Bay wooden hand wrappers and you'll notice they have a strap on them. I'm not positive, but that strap is most likely elastic or a nylon strap with velcro on it. It's used to put tension on the rod blank and won't let the rod slip easily if you need to stop in the middle of the wrap. Roger referred to needing to keep the rod stationary, in the thread you linked to this one.

After I fashioned a strap, (I used elastic on the hand wrapper I built) I would try bypassing the tension rod and run the thread either straight from the spool to the rod, or (looking at the picture of the CRB wrapper) from the thread spool to the sliding eyelet and then to the rod. If you need to back up the rod to fix a errant wrap, just hold the thread in your one hand and keep tension on it as you turn the rod backwards. Once you get to where you need to restart wrapping, (while holding tension on the thread with the hand holding it) you can either turn your thread spool backwards until you get the thread under tension off the spool again, or you can hold the thread in your hand and start wrapping until the thread is under tension off the spool.

As much as you're having trouble believing it, your problem is thread tension. I hate that you're having trouble with it. I and I'm sure many others know the frustration you're experiencing. Don't give up, because once you get it, you'll be kicking yourself that you were having trouble with it.

Don't feel bad..... I've kicked myself plenty of times during the learning process, and since I'm no where near done learning, I'm sure I will be kicking myself a lot more in the future



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2017 08:33AM by David Baylor.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 08:38AM

Kelly,
A couple of thoughts,
1. Thread tension. When wrapping, wrap it so tight that it is almost impossible to move. Really no reason to have it any more loose.
2. When starting a wrap, overwrap the loose end by a dozen times. No reason to go short on the number of starting wraps.
3. When finishing a wrap, go over the pull through thread a dozen times as well. Again, really no reason to short yourself on this end either.

As your skill increases, you can decrease the number of over wraps on the starting and finishing threads, but for starting a few more wraps will certainly prevent the thread from coming loose.

p.s.
One of the reasons that I moved very quickly from a hand wrapper to a power wrapper. I so very much appreciated that the power wrapper would keep the thread tight as I was getting the underwraps and pull wraps all sorted out when I was just beginning and trying to keep the wraps with a 3rd hand that I didn't have.

Good luck


p.p.s.
A way to check for thread tension is to tape a guide in place and wrap it and tie it off. Then, attempt to move it. You should have the guide so tight that you can just barely move it one the blank. If the guide moves easily you have the wraps much too loose.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 08:39AM

Kelly,
If you know of any one or a shop that does wrapping, ask if you could spend 30 minutes or so under the watchful eyes of an experienced wrapper. Just this short amount of time under the eyes of a watchful wrapper will help you dial in on the necessary thread tension very quickly .

Be safe

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Donald La Mar (---.lightspeed.lsvlky.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 09:47AM

Kelly

It's a tension thing. 3 or 4 for turns is enough to "lock down" a wrap tag end. Maybe try this; use a coffee cup to hold the thread spool, run the thread through a heavy, thick book for tension, and then straight to the rod. That by-passes your wrapper's tension device. See if the results are better. If so, you've proven to yourself the problem is tension.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Kelly Dow (---.lightspeed.renonv.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 10:11AM

Thank you for all of the suggestions. I think the first thing I'm going to try is to bypsss the rod tip in the CRB and try running the thread straight from the spool to the sliding eyelet as someone suggested. The spool sits on a tensioner so I can play with tension that way and see if that helps. I'll also try adding more wraps to my starting and ending tags. Hopefully I can master this problem because I definitely want to be able to do trim bands, etc. and I won't have the ability to lay down 10+ wraps on each end for those obviously. I'll report back. I did order a power wrapper which I'll have in a couple of weeks (I ordered the ALPS upgrades chuck model). That will change the game completely but I wanted to practice on the hand wrapper for now to get the techniques down.

Again, thanks for the suggestions, I'll try out them out and keep practicing!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 10:29AM

you might want to skip using the tension arm and go directly from the thread carriage until you find your sweet spot with wrapping and do a test wrap just using the tension from the spool carriage once you have got it down to where you wraps are tight and lay well then add the arm .
as for the starting the wrap you would want to do 5- 7 in the beginning making sure they are tight then continue on till you get ready to insert the pull loop and again 5-7 is more than sufficient provided you have enough tension any more than 5-7 will leave what I call a worm at the start and finish of the wrap.
Placement of the pull loop should be at least 45 degrees from the foot of the guide.
you will find that if you keep the thread wrapping on the blank a bit shy of the of the lay of the previous threads and they will lay nice and close so you won't have an excess of gaping of the wrap.
you biggest problem is not enough tension .

Kelly if you would like I can call you just e mail me you # and a best time to call Mathew

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2017 11:20AM by Matthew Paul.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Corbin Dallas (---.lightspeed.renonv.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 11:47AM

deleted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2017 11:48AM by Corbin Dallas.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Kelly Dow (---.lightspeed.renonv.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 11:50AM

Matthew Paul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Kelly if you would like I can call you just e
> mail me you # and a best time to call Mathew

Well heck, I appreciate the offer! I do not want to bother you with a phone call right now though, instead, I thought about making a short video of what I am doing so people could critique as well...

*the "deleted" message above was me (Corbin Dallas), I used an alias when I first registered before I read that you have to use your real name (I do this on all forums for privacy). Mods can delete that Corbin account if possible please.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2017 12:02PM by Kelly Dow.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Kelly Dow (---.lightspeed.renonv.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 02:20PM

OK, I made a short video so hopefully it will convey what I am doing wrong so someone can help please! Link below:

[youtu.be]

Any feedback welcome as to what I should change to stop the unraveling so easily...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Mel Shimizu (---.socal.res.rr.com)
Date: May 15, 2017 03:00PM

I think you cut your thread with your razor blade.Your blade should not be at that kind of angle and you are cutting into your wraps.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: Mel Shimizu (---.socal.res.rr.com)
Date: May 15, 2017 03:00PM

I think you cut your thread with your razor blade.Your blade should not be at that kind of angle and you are cutting into your wraps.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling... (UPDATED WITH VIDEO)
Posted by: Jason Reddick (---.uncg.edu)
Date: May 15, 2017 03:15PM

I thought the razor angle was sketchy too, but people use scalpels the same way. If the thread came apart in two pieces that's the culprit, but it looked like it was still one piece.

I believe the unraveling might be occurring because he is just burnishing too vigorously and for too long? You just want to smooth it out a few times.

In any case I think the tension is way tighter than what it needs to be. I found that if the tension is too tight, the burnishing doesn't flatten out the threads to fill the gaps - perhaps because the thread is stretched thin just about to its limit by the high tension, and its already as flat as it is going to get. Maybe the experts would have some comment on that too.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling... (UPDATED WITH VIDEO)
Posted by: Grant Darby (---.wavecable.com)
Date: May 15, 2017 03:55PM

You might be spending too much time trying to hold the blank while attempting to pull your tags. That's a whole lot of twisting and turning and is probably undoing the tension you started with. There has to be a better way of holding the blank tighter in your wrapper. Just a couple of other notes. Why such a long tag end? And why tie it down with tape? Why have such a long pull loop? By the time you get down to your wrapping thread youv'e been wiggling it around enough to loosen everything. Never did like cutting thread down on the blank with a razor. A good pair of scissors may be an investment you could consider.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling... (UPDATED WITH VIDEO)
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 04:07PM

well your starting ok but when you get to the end that is where your having troubles your pull loop is spread out under the wrap this can cause the the tag to be a bit loose and not lock down on the thread
and when you got to pull through you might want to place your finger tip on the thread and use a snip to cut the thread and cut it a lot shorter no need to have more than 2-3 inches hold the thread till you get it at the wrap with the pull loop snug and then release it and do the final pull then take the tag and pull it in the direction of the end and carefully nick it off then if needed burnish the wrap and the start and stop ends so you don't have a pronounced line where the thread lies.
as for a call it is not a problem
looking at the thread carriage it to me is backwards and using the guides on the base could be causing part of your problem, try running the thread direct from the spool on the tensioner
you will master it soon and you can try more options with the carriage as you learn.
you just have to kis it = keep it simple when you start all the machines won't make it better just add problems and frustration for the starter hobbyist

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling... (UPDATED WITH VIDEO)
Posted by: Ross Pearson (---.dlth.qwest.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 04:39PM

Looks like overly aggressive burnishing to me. Try just burnishing from the outside in to the center and avoid burnishing the ends of the wraps from the inside beyond the outer ends.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling... (UPDATED WITH VIDEO)
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 05:19PM

Two things I noticed, 1) the angle of the razor blade is too steep, should be parallel to the surface of the wrap, not towards the blank. 2) you are not burnishing, you are scraping! Burnishing is done with the rounded side of the tool, and not as vigorously! Bottom line it looks like you could be cutting the thread on the blank and the scraping it loose.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2017 07:05PM by Phil Erickson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Thread Unraveling...
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: May 15, 2017 05:25PM

You are making it way too hard.

1. Get rid of the pull loops that you are using. What ever they are made from, they seem to be made with line or thread that seems to be on the very thick side. I use pull loops made from 10 lb power pro fishing line and they pull through the wraps very easily.

2. The 2nd mistake that you make is how you hold the thread tight as you go for your final wraps.

In addition, have a pair of snip scissors to snip your wrapping thread when needed.

[www.google.com]

As you are wrapping and get to the final rotation, put a finger on the thread just wrapped, to maintain the tension on the wrapper side of the thread. Grab the snips and snip the thread at about the distance where you are snipping it now.

But, keep the pressure on the wraps on the back side of the rod. Slip the end of the wrapping thread through the pull loop (new thin pull loop) but only put it through 3 or 4 inches. Do not put it all of the way through so that there is not slack in the thread as you did.

Now, while keeping pressure on the back side of the thread wraps, grab your new pull loop, give it a quick snap and the thread will be pulled through and it will be tight. No need to struggle, by putting finger pressure right on the thread where you are trying to pull the thread through.

Then, use your burnishing tools to give it a couple of quick rubs on the end of the wraps to eliminate any gaps and a quick rub of the wrap as you spin the rod and you will be done.

You are nearly there - just relax and it will come to you with perfect results very easily.

Another pretty good video:

[www.youtube.com]

Be safe

Options: ReplyQuote
Pages: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Webmaster