Hello everyone,

So.... I have taken the initiative and started a new CCS database (I say database, but it's really a spreadsheet since everything is done in MS Excel) for blanks which are not meant for fly fishing. I don't have much experience with many different blank types and manufacturers, and I would like to have some source of quantitative data to help compare different blanks.

Right now, the spreadsheet only has information published on public sties by manufacturers (NFC, PacBay and Point Blank). Hopefully, other builders will voluntarily submit information (to include CCS data) they currently have or will record in the future to increase the population of data points in the file. I will take responsibility for keeping everything current, up to date, and making it available to everyone. It is pretty much ready to distribute, but before I do, I'd like to get input from people here about what they would like to see and be able to do with this information. I'm pretty capable with Excel, and am able to create an interface that is fairly easy to use and manipulate for analyzing/comparing data. However, since I'm still kind of new to rod building, I don't necessarily know the ideal information one would want to see.

So let me get input from you about what you'd like to have. I assume you'd want to have the ability to compare two blanks "side by side", but what else? How many blanks might you want to compare at once? How would you want that information shown to you? How do you want to choose the information you want to see? Get creative and try and think of stuff that would be cool/powerful to see. Is there a way to put meaningful data in a graph, and if so, what?

Keep in mind, I'm making the spreadsheet. I can make changes to it (i.e. alter the presentation of data, filtering capabilities, etc.), so what comes out initially doesn't mean that it has to stay that way forever. Improvements can be made at anytime! I'm just hoping that you all will buy in to providing me additional data points on blanks as you get them.

Thanks,
Gib

Father to William (15 yrs), who I hope has found his passion in custom rod building!

If you have the time and provided the information is readily available, add the physical weight and perhaps length of the blanks as well. This offers more of a "one-stop" database so builders won't have to jump from your spreadsheet to the manufacturer's site, etc.

.................

Yes! Let me explain what I have right now. For a given blank I have the following information:
1. Type of report (is the information from a "Manufacturer", a "Supplier" if they ever provide it, or a "3rd Party" like a rod builder, etc.? Intent is to provide info on who gave the numbers and how it compares to other entries of the same blank from different sources.
2. Blank Manufacturer
3. Blank Model
4. Blank Item Number
5. Blank length in inches
6. Number of Pieces
7. Minimum line rating
8. Maximum line rating
9. minimum lure weight
10. Maximum lure weight
11. Stated Power (H, MH, etc)
12. Stated Action (F, XF, etc)
13. Butt size in inches to 3 decimal points
14. Tip size
15. Weight in Ounces
16. IP in Grams
17. AA in degrees
18. Blank Application (General terms only i.e. Mag Bass, Spin Jig, Saltwater, etc)
19. Price of blank in USD
20. Date the price of the blank was recorded.

I already have this information recorded for all NFC, PacBay, and Point Blank blanks which have published CCS accepted figures.
Separately, I have also created a calculator for ERNs, Cents, Grams, & Grains. You can input any one of those figures, and the corresponding figure for the other three measurements is calculated.

Everything will be protected so accidental changes to formulas, data points, etc will be prevented. Anyone who has their own data points to add can send that information to me, and I will update the spreadsheet to keep everything uniform and clean. As far as making it available to everyone, I am open to what people like and are willing to support. If Tom is willing to list the spreadsheet on the Library section here, I can send the file to him each time it is updated. If he doesn't want to do that, then I will put the spreadsheet in my cloud storage and give everyone a link to access the file. Then I can either send out a message every time new data points are entered, or simply update everything once each month/quarter (whenever is deemed best) and publish the new spreadsheet per that schedule.

What I'm asking is how do you want to be able to search and compare the data? Here is what I have in my mind right now:
Have a page that allows you to search the "inventory" and filter results based on any of the recorded parameters above (either by a single value, i.e. list all "3rd party" provided reports or list all "NFC blanks" or list all "HM-MB705-1" results if many entries are submitted, etc; or by a range of values, i.e. list all blanks between 84" and 90" or list all blanks with an IP between certain values, etc.
Getting that set up is fairly straight forward, I just need to decide on the best way to offer those choices. Select using drop down boxes? Radial buttons? Something else? Once that is decided and set up, I'd just want to make sure that everything works and displays as expected and there aren't any query errors that will confuse people.

I'm thinking about making a second page where people can select a few blanks from the initial page, and then generate a list that allows for easy, direct comparison between them all. But this is where the page can become cluttered and messy in a hurry. If you had this direct comparison capability, what items would you want to compare? Certainly you wouldn't need to see all 20 items about the blank, or would you? And would you want the comparison to highlight any difference or ranking of the blanks listed (i.e. the lightest weighing blank and fastest action and strongest IP get highlighted in green and the lowest rated of those figures gets highlighted in red?
One initial concern I have for this page, is making a simple way to "clear" selected items to start a new search that includes the entire inventory. I know that there is a simple way to do this in Excel. I'm just not sure how to put it in the spreadsheet myself. Currently, you have to be fairly familiar with Excel and how the spreadsheet is designed to start a new search from scratch. Otherwise, you may think you are starting a new search, but really are only filtering previously searched items and not including all entries. This part of the file may need to wait a little bit, but you can at least let me know what features you'd like to have and I can start working on the best way to display that.

Would it be informative to have any graphs that show the differences on weight, IP, AA, etc between different blanks? If so, how should that be presented.

I want this to be something of value to the community as well as something that people want to contribute new data points to. This is why I'm asking for your input to how information is displayed so that the spreadsheet becomes a popular tool for rod builders and maybe popularizes the CCS so that all blank manufacturers start to publish this data automatically for all of there blanks.

You can find my email on my profile page here. If you do not want to write a post here on the board, please feel free to email me your ideas.

Thanks,
Gib

Father to William (15 yrs), who I hope has found his passion in custom rod building!

Wow! That is quite an undertaking and it sounds like you have it very much under control. I think this can be a very helpful and meaningful resource for a lot of rod builders. I am really impressed by your willingness and desire to do this. Hopefully, we can all help you out with your data base. Thank you very much!
Norm

As Norman said, that is quite an undertaking. Kudos to you for having the gumption to take it on.

I've built on 2 Rainshadow Immortal blanks that I've been wanting to perform CCS testing on. I plan on testing them within the next 2 weeks. I'll be glad to share what I came up with. I'm assuming builders wanting to post numbers would just post them to this thread?

Oh, and unless somethings changed, the numbers given for Point Blank blanks are not CCS numbers. They use different parameters in their testing to obtain their numbers. Instead of total blank length they use what I believe is called usable blank length, or something like that.

I believe they base their measurements on just the portion of the blank that extends past the rear handle. Possibly to the front of the reel seat. Either way, their numbers will not match a blank tested per the CCS procedure.

David, Point Blanks uses both RDA numbers and CCS numbers. The RDA numbers use the working length of the rod, their power ratings and AA will always be lower than the the CCS IP and AA numbers. Point Blanks gives the CCS data as ERN and AA and their is no reason to doubt these numbers.
As a side thought, would it be possible to set up a CCS measurement booth at the next ICRBE? There are many different Blank manufacturers and models represented at the expo so there is a ready source of blanks that could be measured by a measuring team. Might be a fun thing to do which could be used as an educational tool to demonstrate what CCS is all about, and at the same time generate valuable CCS data.
Norm

Gib, to try to answer your question about what I would want to be able to search for, filter, and compare:
Manufacturer, general application, model, length, weight, stated power, stated action, IP in grams, AA.

There should be a note on whether data entered is manufacturer data or "user" data. Even saving all the other blank data, which is available from the sources, may create a burden which may be unnecessary.

I'm afraid that if we get too much into this part of the project it will become too complicated/unwieldy.

I hope you'll be able to handle it as you want as it could be a great resource. It sounds like a tremendous challenge to me. I'm sure you've considered the issue of complexity/completeness vs simplicity. At first, if I were doing it, I'd keep it as simple as possible.

I would concur with something Michael said above - you can get too involved and things can become too complicated. Manufacturers typically provide information based on the blank as sold... not what it might weigh if you cut or extend it, or what it will measure if you have this or that handle length, etc. You provide the basic data (length, weight, AA, ERN/IP, CCF [if available]) and let it go at that. It is then up to the builder to take the standing data and make qualified estimates of what they'll wind up as they modify the blank, add components, build a certain way, etc.

......................

Gib,
Items 7 thru 10 are probably not required.
Lure weight and line weight are nebulous and are at the mercy of the fisherman.
Distance from tip to reel seat is a variable which may be explored as they determine where flex begins and will have an effect on rod deflection.

Been walking this road for a long time. The difference is I wish to determine the performance characteristics mathematically, based on published manufacturer specs, rather than buy and test. Be aware most people have subtle variances in their measurement procedure which will affect the measured results.

You may also wish to include blank material

Gene



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2017 02:25PM by Eugene Moore.

Norman, I wasn't aware that Point Blank started testing their blanks using the CCS criteria. Thank you for informing me of that.

I bet Jim Ising had something to do with that.

I am sure Jm was involved in getting CCS data for the Point Blanks. I measured a couple of Point Blanks to see how my numbers compared to theirs, and they were pretty close. At first I could not convert my I P values to ERN for comparison, then I got the NFC CCS chart and the Point Blank ERN converted very close to my measured IP values. So I have no reason to doubt their numbers.
Norm

Ok.

In the interests of sharing this sooner vs later, I have only built in limited filtering capability (the basic filter on excel). As people use the spreadsheet, hopefully they will recommend things to me that they would like to see or have the capability to do. Hopefully, you have, at least, a basic understanding of excel and how to navigate in it, but please feel free to email me with problems you might have.

The spreadsheet opens on the "Directions" tab. You will see some notes on the workbook in general, notes for the "Database" tab, notes for the "Calculator" tab, and two big red buttons to take you directly to the database or calculator. You can also navigate via the tabs at the bottom of each sheet. Printing formats are already set to 1 page wide.

NOTE: I have most of the cells protected so you cannot access them. This is to protect the data in the worksheet and make it easier for you to use. Do not think something is wrong when you cannot access something the way you normally do. The cells you need to use are available for you to access.

If you have CCS data to add to the database, please email that to me at wportwood@mac.com. It would be nice if, in addition to the CCS data, you also measured the standard measurements provided by the manufacturer (length, weight, butt & tip measurements) just as a way to verify what is given and also to measure variability among the blanks sold. For now, everything is based off of a blank only. If needed, we can make a separate page for CCS data on completed rods.

Please send me any and all CCS data you have--even if the blank is listed here already. In my mind, the search feature in the spreadsheet will improve from what is there now, and we will have the ability to list multiple CCS measurements of the same blank in a way that shows how many data points we have as well as the different measurements taken by each report.

Future updates of the workbook will be published here on RodMaker.org, in a new thread titled accordingly.

I hope you all like the workbook, and come up with good ideas on how it can be improved. Most importantly, I hope you send me more information to populate the database!

to access the spreadsheet click here [1drv.ms]
A page should open and you can see and navigate through the workbook. Near the top right of the screen should be three dots [...] If you click on that, a new list should appear with a button to download the spreadsheet to your computer.

Thanks,
Gib
wportwood@mac.com

Father to William (15 yrs), who I hope has found his passion in custom rod building!

Very impressive! I have some rods to add when I get the time to add them. Gib, just suppose I don't take the time to fill out all the stuff that is available in the catalogs, like tip dia, do you still want the data? Nice work, indeed.

Sure.. Send it

Father to William (15 yrs), who I hope has found his passion in custom rod building!

Excellent job Gib. As mentioned earlier, I'll definitely be submitting my findings on a couple of blanks.

Looking through the specs on a couple of the blanks I noticed some discrepancies between the published data that I have for the Pac Bay Quickline Spin Jig blanks, and the data that you have posted for those blanks.

Specifically the QLSJ 902, 903, and 904. The IP and AA numbers you have posted don't match those from Pac Bay's catalog. Below are the numbers listed in the catalog.

QLSJ902 IP in grams: 575 AA: 78
QLSJ903 IP in grams: 769 AA: 75
QLSJ904 IP in grams: 871 AA: 75

[www.fishpacbay.com]

Oh, and I've built on the Quickline SJ blanks. If you're looking for a very nice blank, give them a look. I think you'd be very happy with them. I know I love the rods I've built on them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2017 08:03AM by David Baylor.

Discountinued stuff, or recent only?

We can put in discontinued stuff. That may help with the "comparison" tool that I'm trying to incorporate into the spreadsheet.

Father to William (15 yrs), who I hope has found his passion in custom rod building!

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent job Gib. As mentioned earlier, I'll
> definitely be submitting my findings on a couple
> of blanks.
>
> Looking through the specs on a couple of the
> blanks I noticed some discrepancies between the
> published data that I have for the Pac Bay
> Quickline Spin Jig blanks, and the data that you
> have posted for those blanks.
>
> Specifically the QLSJ 902, 903, and 904. The IP
> and AA numbers you have posted don't match those
> from Pac Bay's catalog. Below are the numbers
> listed in the catalog.
>
> QLSJ902 IP in grams: 575 AA: 78
> QLSJ903 IP in grams: 769 AA: 75
> QLSJ904 IP in grams: 871 AA: 75
>
>
> [www.fishpacbay.com]
> 0Jig%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf
>
> Oh, and I've built on the Quickline SJ blanks. If
> you're looking for a very nice blank, give them a
> look. I think you'd be very happy with them. I
> know I love the rods I've built on them.

David,

Good catch! Thanks for pointing that out to me. Apparently my eyes got fuzzy when I was typing info in and I typed in the CCS data for the Popping blanks instead of the Spin Jig Blanks on those 3 models.

Everyone,

If anyone finds any errors, please let me know so I can correct them quickly.

I've updated the workbook, and will resave it. This will cause a new link to be created. I will post a new message with the new link and updated workbook.

We can let this thread die out.

Thanks,
Gib

Father to William (15 yrs), who I hope has found his passion in custom rod building!

The new thread with the updated link: [rodbuilding.org]

Father to William (15 yrs), who I hope has found his passion in custom rod building!