Been using the 27X concept on rods I have been building myself. Somebody would like me to build them a rod or two, but they can't decide on what reel or what size reel they want to stick with. Obviously, production rods can't be made with the guide sizing and spacing based on a certain reel.

What is the best way to setup spinning guides on a rod if the reel that will be used is an unknown?

Thanks!

Tucker

Surely they would have at least some idea what size reel they'll be using. Just try to get close and you should be fine.

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Lets just say for the sake of discussion they may use a large arbor spinning reel or a 1000 sized shimano. Two much different spool sizes. What do most rod manufacturers use? I like my custom rods better, but my factory rods never struck me as casting poorly either, and i will still be using lighter guides than factory with minimas.

Good lesson in just getting close, but what if we have no idea?

The manufacturers don't put that much thought into it. For say, a 7 foot freshwater spinning rod they just pick what looks good; hopefully what looks good to the eye of the consumer. Almost anything will work, but obviously the closer you can dial in the actual reel that will be used the better things will be. If you have to err on one side of the other, set up for the larger reel and then if they use the smaller one you'll be okay. That may be about the best you can do.

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Tucker,
I generally build all of my spinning rods so that they are set up for a size 2500 reel. This is a midweight reel and have never really found any issues in using a very small reel on the same blank with respect to guide setup and operation.

Be safe

The reel size is not as important for determining guide size/spacing as the type of line being used. For example: 20# Mason nylon monofilament or 20# braided gel-spun polyethylene?

Obviously line type (suppleness) plays a role. But reel spool size is pretty important - if you were talking a casting reel then the type of line would be almost immaterial. It's the way the line comes off the spool of a spinning reel that matters and the size of those initial loops play a role.

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I agree with Phil that it's mostly about the line. It was mostly about the line when no one seemed to be paying attention to braid, and were basing everything on one magic formula.
But finally more sophistication came into the equation, and people started to realize that if you were going to limit yourself to braid you had a lot more freedom. Fuji was the first, I believe, to put it in writing with different groups for different lines. I expect to be "corrected," but that's how I saw it develop.

There has never been a magic formula. However there are formulas or factors that will work very well with a wide array of line types and sizes. When you do not know what line type or size is going to be used, such a process is very helpful.

Braid, being more supple, can be controlled (choked) more quickly for that reason. In many ways it is easier and more forgiving to set up a rod for braid than for mono. But a rod that works well with mono will generally work well with braid. The opposite is not quite as true.

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Tucker

I use 5 or 6 different spinning reels depending on where I will be fishing and how I will be fishing. I have measured spool diameter for all, and also have measured the reels of my fishing buddies. If I will be building a rod to be used with an unknown reel I use the "average" spool diameter for the approximate series of reel that will be used.

Rog

There has been a formula, which was promoted without regard for line characteristics, for years. It was only fairly recently that recognition of the freedom that braid afforded occurred. NIH?

I'm not aware of it. My 27X factor always mentioned that line type dictated how close or quickly you could control/choke the line. I can't possibly be aware of all the various methods so the one you mention may be outside of my knowledge.

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Before anybody gets too carried away with the various methods I would say that in my experience there is barely a dime's worth of difference between in actual use. The original Fuji NGC which used a table straightedge line from the spool spindle upsweep started things and works pretty well in most instances. Turns out that spool upsweep doesn't really make much difference but it can be used for setting up the NGC and usually gives good results regardless. It beats the COF in nearly all cases and not just casting distance. The 27X method is the failsafe because it works almost optimally with any combination of reel and line. If you don't know what line a guy may use this is the way to go because you can change line types and pound tests diameters and it keeps on working just as well. As Tom has mentioned many times though, if you know for sure that a guy is going to be using a limper or stiffer line you can tweak the choker in closer or further out for a little extra performance. Emphasis on "little extra" if we're talking casting distance. If you know for a fact that a guy is only going to be using braid then I think the Angler's Resources quick choke systems online are the way to go. Easy to use and set up and works great with braid. If the guy goes to mono he might lose a little though but overall most would never notice. The Microwave system gives as good of performance as any of these with mono or braid and is also real easy to set up. Some don't like the guide sets, I know. In the end I doubt there is even a 5% difference in any of these systems casting-wise when used within reason. Probably less in most cases. Take your pick they all work very well.

There is indeed a point of diminishing returns, at least casting-wise. On the other hand, if you know you're going to be using a lighter, more supple line, particularly braid, you can come in a little closer on the choke, use a smaller butt guide and perhaps reap some dividends on the weight-balance scale. I've said this a thousand times if I've said it once.

Back to the original poster's request - if the customer does not know what reel he's going to be using, or line type and size, surely he must have some general idea. Ask what he thinks he'll use. If you're building a bass rod then you can sort of rule out the very smallest and very largest reels. Pick something in the middle and build around that. It'll work. It may not be optimum in the end, but it'll work fine on most counts. After all, you can only do so much with limited information. Err on the side of picking a little larger reel and/or line and it'll work fine with that or anything under that.

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I disagree. It did not mention line, for a long time.

27X? I mentioned the importance of line type and size and wrote about it from day one. Even before I developed it I had said many times that the more supple and smaller diameter the line is the closer the choke guide can be and the smaller the butt guide can be. It's in the published record, many, many times going back some 20 years. It's also something which would seem obvious, I would hope, to most custom builders.

Beyond that, 27X was developed as a system that accommodated all reels and line types. It works exceptionally well with any and all. But as I have said many, many times, if you know that your client is going to be using a smaller more supple line, or a larger less supple line, you may want to tweak the butt and choke guide for even more optimal results.

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In all fairness, you can go back at least ten years or so when the 27X first came out and Tom stated that it could be tweaked for more limp or more stiff lines. Check this forum's archives if you don't believe it. But as I understand it, the beauty of 27X is that it works with everything, so sort of a best of all worlds system which has been a plus for me. But yes, anyone that subscribes to the magazine or reads this forum for more than a few months would know of his statements on tweaking it for a specific line type going way back many years. Newcomers may not though.

One thing I was going to mention earlier and did not make clear was that the Microwave system is also a great option if you do not have specifics for the reel or line type. Set it up per the instructions for the general rod type and it will work very well no matter what reel or line the customer winds up using. It's really hard to go wrong with it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2017 10:31PM by Mike Ballard.

I have also detailed how to arrive at a specific factor if you're building rods for braid only use.

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Thanks for the input everyone. Makes perfect sense to setup for the larger reel and line setup, and yes, a 2500 series should typically be in the ballpark if not on the larger size for the rods I'm building. Great advice, thank you.