I have read the banter back & forth concerning single & double foot fly guides. Specifically, can single foot guides work successfully on a 9'-12 wt saltwater fly rod if each guide is locked in place?

I am considering turning the fly rod handle from EVA (for a better wet-hand grip) -full wells configuration with a 5-inch over-reach for fighting large fish. The over-reach should look like the front half of the normal wells grip

how much rod extension should be behind the reel seat?

EVA will not make a good fly rod grip. Too soft. Single foot guides will work fine for what you want to do.

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Not certain I understand your question regarding blank extension beyond the reel seat. I assume that for a 12 wt you are planning for a fighting butt. If yes, you have 3 options and even more variations on those options.

Option 1 is you could turn a fighting butt from cork or other (not EVA) and mount directly to the blank similarly to the way the main grip is mounted. You'll probably use a composite or rubberized cork for the en of the fighting butt so remember to make allowance for its width as the blank will not extend into that material. Said another way around, the length of the blank extending from the seat will be equal to the overall length of the fighting butt minus the depth / width of the composite cork or other material into which the butt will not extend. This results in all the rod sections being of equal length.

Options 2 and 3 assuming a pre-fabricated and matching reel seat and fighting butt. Option 2 is not to extend the blank beyond the seat, which will result in the butt section being longer than the other sections by the total, overall length of the fighting butt. Option 3 is to shorten the butt section by the overall length of the fighting butt, which will result in the butt section being the same length as the other sections.

Am applying finish this morning to a TFO 12 wt TiCr X. for that rod i shortened the butt section only by the length of the plug that fits into the reel seat. Thus the butt section's overall length is longer than the others by the length of exposed / visible length of the fighting butt. This was as the rod recipient's request, and it causes the full Wells grip and fore / fighting grip to be located exactly where they would have been mounted without a fighting butt.

One way to gain understanding of how tough HIGH QUALITY single foot wire guides properly wrapped and epoxied are is to put one onto a test piece blank, with the wrap of your choice and properly coated, then try to move it. I think you will be surprised at how tough it is to bend them or to move them. Plenty of strength for your application. While you're at it, do one with CP and one without.

I recommend oversized heavy wire snake guides. The single foot guides I have seen are much too small in wire diameter.
Your fly line coating will wear less on thicker diameter wire,,,, at $85-$100 per line that is a consideration.
When fighting large fish with a 12wt, you apply quite a force to the fly line in the guides.

Regards,
Fred Krow

Not certain I understand your question regarding blank extension beyond the reel seat. I assume that for a 12 wt you are planning for a fighting butt. If yes, you have 3 options and even more variations on those options.

Option 1 is you could turn a fighting butt from cork or other (not EVA) and mount directly to the blank similarly to the way the main grip is mounted. You'll probably use a composite or rubberized cork for the en of the fighting butt so remember to make allowance for its width as the blank will not extend into that material. Said another way around, the length of the blank extending from the seat will be equal to the overall length of the fighting butt minus the depth / width of the composite cork or other material into which the butt will not extend. This results in all the rod sections being of equal length.

Options 2 and 3 assuming a pre-fabricated and matching reel seat and fighting butt. Option 2 is not to extend the blank beyond the seat, which will result in the butt section being longer than the other sections by the total, overall length of the fighting butt. Option 3 is to shorten the butt section by the overall length of the fighting butt, which will result in the butt section being the same length as the other sections.

Am applying finish this morning to a TFO 12 wt TiCr X. for that rod i shortened the butt section only by the length of the plug that fits into the reel seat. Thus the butt section's overall length is longer than the others by the length of exposed / visible length of the fighting butt. This was as the rod recipient's request, and it causes the full Wells grip and fore / fighting grip to be located exactly where they would have been mounted without a fighting butt.

Exactly how much does a weight saving of, say, 12 grains in the guide train improve the performance of, say, a 9wt. fly rod in MEASURED distance or accuracy? Real differences can be measured and are preferable to casual opinions.

Likely not very much at all.

I would recommend 8mm single foot ceramic running guides with titanium frames and two or three double foot strippers (20mm, 12mm and 8mm). Like this; Fuji KW 20mm, KW 12mm, KW 8mm, KB 8mm, KB 8mm, KB 8mm, KB 8mm, KB 8mm, KB 8mm, KT 8mm, KT 8mm, KT 8mm and a KG Arowana 8mm tip top. 12 guides total (does not include tip top). The runners could also be all L frames. The 20mm stripper should be spaced about 77" from the tip top. If you go closer to the tip top with this stripper go down to a 16mm ring and eliminate a running guide, this will give you 11 guides total (does not include tip top). I believe, after much testing, that you need more single foot running guides than DF snake guides to keep the line straight. By using titanium frames you are saving the weight that will keep the rod action similar to the designation by the blank manufacturer. The number of wraps is decreased, even when using 12 guides, so this will also save weight. I do not like single foot snake guides because of the way they are designed. If you absolutely need a wire guide then consider the REC RSPG single foot spinning guides for runners.

I must be missing something. I don't see why higher weight rods need 20 mm strippers and 8 mm running guides when the line isn't all that much bigger than a lighter wt line. If the objective is to "keep the line straight" it would lead to smaller guides, not bigger guides.

I don't recommend single foot guides on SW rods for durability reasons. SW rods in a boat take a beating, more so getting to-from than from fighting fish. My trusty RPLX's with single foot guides all required re-wrapping after 6 months of boat use due to broken guides, twisted frames, corroded frames, loose inserts. Since then (over 20 years since), I've gone with snakes and not regretted it. And since the recoils became available and ti-framed stripping guides, they've been a blessing. And I do like 20mm / 16mm strippers on these rods not due to line size, but the diameter of the reels and the angle of line coming off of something like a Tibor Pacifica into a 16mm stripper; the larger diameter of a 20 helps protect the line from excessive abrasion. Not a lot, but it does lessen the angle a bit. On a 12wt, a 3 or at most a 4 snake is all the size you need. If you're dealing with really large knots like an Australian Plait, the 4's may be warranted; a Slim Beauty will pass through a 3 snake with no problem. Also consider your line/leader connection in that calculation... nothing worse than a leader connection getting hung up in a guide when your trying to leader a fish.

Personally, I think a fore-grip leads to bad fish-fighting technique and broken rods. But it that's your thing, go for it. But I'll agree with Tom on the foam.....foam on any fly rod is a recipe for major hand cramps. Not enough support. All the above just my 2-cents...food for thought.

Enjoy your build and post pics when you finish!

Michael Danek Wrote:
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> I must be missing something. I don't see why
> higher weight rods need 20 mm strippers and 8 mm
> running guides when the line isn't all that much
> bigger than a lighter wt line. If the objective
> is to "keep the line straight" it would lead to
> smaller guides, not bigger guides.


The larger 20mm stripper is for the closer distance to the reel in order to control the line at this distance also as Mr. Yates stated about the reel spool size and a better transition when fighting a large fish. If I were to move the Stripper farther away from the reel then I would go with a 16mm ring but, I would go no smaller with the stripper on a 12 wt. The larger ceramic running guides are for knots to pass through with less resistance and to give you more variety as far as lines and knots go. 7mm ceramic running guides will work but again I would go no smaller and you are pushing it then. Double foot snake guides may have a smaller profile but have a larger opening due to the design. The ring diameter compared to the line diameter allows for larger rings. You are not casting a mono or braided line that has a small diameter compared to a 12 wt fly line. The amount of guides keep the sag and contact of the line to the blank at a minimum when loading and casting, and the line will pass through the guides better. I also agree that titanium frames are a blessing.

Thanks for the explanation.

I like Lance's explanation about the 20mm stripper. Another theory I've heard is that if there's any tangle in the fly line, the oversized stripper will allow the tangle to pass (and hopefully untangle) a little easier. Another reason for using bigger running guides with a 12 wt is the size of the knot on your line to leader connection and the guide's ability to allow the knot to pass.
I would go with snake guides, personal preference and in my mind, they pass knots easier due to their geometry.