I am experiencing difficulty with initial reduction guide placement on a surf spinning rod and would graciously appreciate assistance from seasoned veterans such as you. The blank is a 2-piece, 9ft-4in old FG Conolon with a 23in aluminum butt extension (3in overlap). The reel is a Daiwa Emblem Pro 5000-A (4500 size as stated on the box). The reel was chosen from recommendations of those on this site and only paid $100.00. Reduction guides are Fuji LC’s 20, 16, 12, with KW-8 runners and a MN-8 top. The LC-12 will probably need to be substituted with a KW-8. Fuji guides were chosen because, due to the lack of rod building experience, I trust the quality and reputation of Fuji, the LC’s are tall-framed and surf rod specific, and the LC’s just plain look sexy. My initial rookie assessment of the difficulty is the reel lacking enough upsweep angle to place the guides at a reasonable distance from (close enough to) the reel. Fortunately, I did not purchase a larger reel. My second assessment is the blank lacking the required length for the reel being used. My third assessment is admitting I’m a rookie and to get on the rodbuilding.org site to ask for qualified help.
While admittedly and possibly crude, an upsweep angle of 3.5 – 4 degrees was obtained, basically utilizing the “Table edge” method but, rather, with a long, quality straightedge. Does that seem correct? I would think the angle would be greater. From the mounted reel position, that upsweep angle puts the choke-point over 6ft from the spool shaft tip and only 20in from the tip. That would produce a reduction train length, including the choke guide, within 6in of the running guide train length. Is that proper? Additionally, the stripper would be approximately 37in from the tip of the spool shaft and fore of the ferrule of which I am unaccustomed. Anglers Resource suggests “22 to as much as 28in for larger 6000 to 10000 series reels”. I am perplexed! On other rods, I have fudged a bit and moved the stripper closer to the reel but the sloped ring of the KL-H or KW gave me the confidence to do so.
To hopefully assist those willing to help unravel my dilemma, I have included the following measurements:
- Blank overall = 112in
- Butt to center of ferrule = 53in, ferrule length = 3.5in
- Spool shaft tip height from blank = 3.875in
- Butt to spool shaft tip = 20in
- Spool shaft tip to Choke Point = 72.25in
- Spool shaft tip to stripper / 1st guide (LC-20)= 37.5in
- Spool shaft to 2nd guide (LC-16) = 52.625in
- Spool to 3rd guide, (LC-12) = 59in (Probably to be substituted with KW-8 below)
- Spool to 3rd guide, (KW-8) = 62.125
Thank you for your time, concern and wisdom!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Choke guide distance from the tip is of no concern. It's the distance from reel spool to choke guide that matters.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

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Good Luck....I didn't even understand half of what your saying and still don't understand the problem...I'm still a rookie..LoL

I would use the Fuji (angler's resource) GPS software to get a starting point for guide placement.
Some reels have zero upsweep angle, in other words the spool shaft is parallel to the blank.
Follow the reel measurement instructions and then experiment by entering alternatives until the angle is zero - the GPS will still provide a choke point and positions for most if not all guides style Fuji makes.
Both the GPS and KR recommendations have always been an excellent starting point in my experience.

Jon,
Mark isn't sure he has his guides set up right according to the article Tom put a link up for. Tom is saying that rod length, how it looks on the rod, etc. is not important, what is important is the relationship between guide size, guide height, and a straight line path to the choker guide, ( first guide that is the same size as all the other guides on the tip section). With all things being equal as far as the reelseat, reel, etc, a 5 1/2 ft rod and a 12 foot rod would have the same exact guide reduction sizes, in the same exact spot on the rods, when using the same reel.. Grip length, who made the blank, how the blank is made, whether your fishing for red drum, or catfish, etc. just doesn't matter when setting up the guide reduction train to the choker guide. A spin bass blank used for dropshotting will have the same guides and positions as a steelhead light line drift rod if your using the same reel.

Well said.

...............

Thanks, Tom. I did the 27X calculations and that value puts the choker about 6in further up the blank from the “Table edge method” location. Apparently that in its self should be of no concern, BUT that will require moving the stripper further forward as well, which is already an excessive 37in from the spool lip. If the stripper is placed the “suggested max” distance from the spool of 28in, it would need to be approximately 58mm tall. The only compatible Fuji’s would be a KW-30 (59.6mm tall), MN-40 (62.1), SV-40 (61.4), or N-40 (58). Even the tallest of the expensive RV-25H (55.9) is barely suitable. By the way, I would prefer to use double foot guides. Without attempting to build a KR rod, I appreciate the attributes of rapid-choking and tend to steer that way. 30, let alone 40 ring sizes are not what was anticipated being used.
I guess my question should be addressed to what surf rod builders do to accommodate the use of LC’s? I was under the impression LC’s were used on surf spinning rods, but maybe they were designed only for casting set-ups. Other than switching to different guides, are my only options finding someone who makes guide leg extensions or fabricating a custom angled reel seat to effectively produce more upsweep angle? LOL

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Spencer,
Well said X2 and understandable to us newbies as well!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark,
The real easy solution to your issue is to use a stripper guide that is a size 30 or 40 to give you the height that you wish to have. Set the stripper at 25 or 30 inches and go on from there. I appreciate your comment about steering away from a size 30 or 40 sized guide, but that size guide makes for an easy solution for an excellent casting rod.

By the way Mark, I use a simple test to verify that things are going to work all right for me with respect to guide size and placement. After taping the guides in place, I install a tip on the rod and string the line through the guides.
Then, I pull about 100 feet of line off of the reel and place slight tension on the line as I reel the line back onto the reel. I am very critical of the line placement as it comes back through the stripper guide. I have found over the years, that if - when reeling the line back in under slight pressure - that if the line follows the circumference of the stripper guide - that at least that portion of the guide train will work well. If, on the other hand, the line tends to rub along the top side of the stripper guide, that the guide is either too small or too short. Conversely, if the line is always rubbing along the bottom of the stripper guide, the guide is either too large or too tall. Inherent in this test is that the rest of the guides are of the correct size and placed in their correct positions.

Good luck



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2017 06:26AM by roger wilson.

Bert, Thanks for taking time to respond. At least I now know upsweep angles can be almost zero. I have never taken advantage of the GPS at Anglers Resource but may try to develop enough courage to do so. I really need to in this case. With a KW-8 at the proper choke-point and a straight edge to the spool shaft, if the stripper is placed 28in from the shaft, it will need to be 60mm tall and will leave almost 40in between the two guides to fill with the remaining reduction guides and only 24in of runners. While accustomed to the inverse where the reduction train is shorter, it is what it is. Can’t make chicken soup from chicken poop!
Roger, thanks also for responding, yet again. Using a size 30 or 40 for the easy solution? I thought you knew me better by now. I’m the Habitual-Over-Thinker! LOL Attempts at humor aside, I may have to go with the bigger rings or take out a second on the house to purchase a RV-25. Either way, I am concerned with a 40in reduction train. Be it good or bad, you and I have some similar thinking processes as I also string-up the reduction train and reel in line to assist placing the guides, stripper in particular. Maybe not always, but this setup will certainly be a prime candidate.
I am still bewildered why these LCs are such a problem, being basically surf rod specific. I was anxious to adorn this old blank with such sexy looking guides. But they appear to simply lack the required height. Unfortunately, those building a lot of surf rods and/or utilizing the LCs have not responded. Maybe I should just convert it to a live bait conventional rod. I never have guide type / placement issues with those.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Bert, and anyone else interested,
I was guilty crying-before-I-was-hit and found using the GPS software from AR/Fuji easier to use than anticipated. I was extremely careful while measuring the reel using their guidelines and feel more confident with the overall outcome. Apparently the reel is 3 degrees rather than the 3.5 to 4 as achieved previously, admittedly a rather large error. Unfortunately, the LCs are not included in the software, but their location ends up fairly close to that of the KWs prescribed positions in the software.
With a straightedge between the new choke-point and spool shaft, the LC-20 stripper is less than 2mm shy of optimum = good enough to tape all the guides on for static and cast testing. The stripper cannot be moved (forward) due to already crowding the ferrule. I have committed myself to “Form-Follows-Function” for almost everything I do but as stated earlier, I would really like to use these LCs in the reduction train because of their good looks but am prepared to revert to KWs, as already planned for the runners, if required.
To enhance my chances of you receiving this, I would have emailed you but that address is blocked.
Thanks again for your concern, assistance and advice.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Which of the two Fuji GPSs did you use? Are you planning on using braided line? If so, you have the options of moving the stripper closer to the reel, using a lower stripper height, and moving the choke pt closer to the reel for more rapid and effective line choking. Braid is soft with very little if any memory and does not give you the stiff coils coming off the reel you get with mono. These characteristics allow more versatility in putting together you guide train.
Norm

Norman, thanks not only for replying but for affording me very good news concerning this build. This follow-up means a lot to me.
First off, with the GPS (Reel Measurement, by the way) print out, the LCs I was hoping to use are, now, very close to making the required height. With the information you just gave me, particularly with the use of braid enabling me to move the stripper closer to the reel, I am expecting the LCs to be OK. Your announced “fudge-factor” combined WITHOUT moving the stripper should put everything perfect. For my future reference, when you say moving the guides / choke- point closer, I can’t imagine that being more than 1in, correct? While not an idiot with, I am certainly not computer-savvy, hence not using GPS until now. What a great method to confidently place the reduction guides initially before static and cast testing! So I am feeling good about, most likely, being able to use the LCs and even better about shaking the “scare” bug off me and using the GPS. Right now, if I was any happier, it wouldn’t be fair to the rest of the world.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark set up your guide train, temporarily affix the guides to the blank, put on your reel, run the line through the guides, attach a small weight to the line, and let it drop to the floor. Take your finger and hold the line at the bottom of the spool. Holding the rod horizontally with tension, look at how the line passes from the bottom of the reel through the guides. You want to see a straight line from the bottom of the reel to the choke guide and a straight line from the choke to the tip. With no really sharp angles and the line just touching the bottom of each guide. A little bit of a bend at the stripper is ok. If you get this you are ok to static test. If not move the guides accordingly. When static testing leave everything as is and tie an additional line to the tip top and tie it to something heavy or immovable. Static testing with this second line give a more natural flex without the guides affecting it. Hope this helps.
Norm

Norman,
Are you kidding? Your replies ALWAYS help!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.