Finishing up a spin rod I started some time ago. I've located what I think are appropriate positions for the stripper and reduction train as per KR GPS and am left with the runners.
Most sources say to rely on static testing to indicate where to place the runners, as well as presumably how many will be needed.
For the neophyte such as myself however, I'm left wondering where to start? I gather from reading here and elsewhere that with luck, time, and many more builds I will have a 'sense' of these things and be able to make an educated guess where/how many runners to use. At this time I don't have much of a clue. Any ideas?

Rainshadow IST993F 8'3", #6-10, 1/4-1/2 oz. I'll be using #6-8 mono throwing spoons and spinners at trout and some steelhead.
Guides are PacBay M guides. Reduction is 16-8-6. Runners are 4L.
Stripper beyond spool axle tip 20"
Stripper to 2nd 10.4"
2nd to 3rd 9.2"
3rd to choke 7.7"
Choke point beyond spool axle tip 47.2"

I have 7 additional runners for the remaining ~38" to the tip.
Where to start?

Space them progressively from tip to choke. For example, distance from tip down to choke in inches.
3.5, 8, 13, 18.5, 24.5, 31, 38. This should be close, tape them on, static test, and test cast. Adjust guide positions if needed. This should give a very good starting point. Hope this helps.
Norm

Dan, check out the static load tutorial on the Anglers Resource site. Should help.

You may find that you don't need 7 running guides to cover that last 38 inches to the tip.

............

The measurements I gave requires 1 less guide, because the guide at 38" is already accounted for as the first runner (choke) so you will be using a total of ten guides, Three in the reduction train (16, 8, & 6) and seven runners (4Ls). Do look at the static load tutorial at Anglers Resource, it is helpful. Basically, tape on your guides put your reel in place run the line through the guides, and tie the line to something fixed. You should have a nice straight line, with no sharp angles, from the bottom of reel spool to the first runner and then a straight line from the first runner to the tip top. When you put a bend in the rods you should have a nice smooth arc where the stress is evenly distributed throughout. Once the guides are where you want them then test cast the rod. I the measurements you have for both the reduction train and runners will be extremely close and depending on the action of the blank you may or may not need to tweak a little. I think you will be very impressed with the performance of the guide train.
Norm

Thank you Norm, Lynn, and Tom! I am so impressed with this forum.

From the first paragraph of the Static Load tutorial,
"Measure the distance from the tip guide to the last reduction guide, divide this number by 5 and add that many running guides PLUS 1 more to the rod, equal distances apart."
That distance (tip to last reduction guide) is ~46". 46/5 + 1= 10 runners. 10 runners in 38"?
Tip to choke/first runner ~ 36". 36/5 + 1= 8 runners.
Does this not seem like too many runners either way?

Otherwise the tutorial makes perfect sense to me. At the time I bought the guides I felt certain somehow I wouldn't need all 7 after the choke. Admittedly I know next to nothing about this but 10 runners in 38" somehow 'feels' odd..

What am I missing?

Do not know how they came up with those numbers. Ten runners are far too many! The major importance of the tutorial is getting a nice smooth curve with the line that follows the blank curve to evenly distribute stress. The static test article that Tom wrote, which is in the library, does a better job. Spinning rods usually require fewer guides than casting rods, which have guides on top. Go with what you have now, you'll be happy!
[www.rodbuilding.org]
Norm

Cheers, Norm!

When you do the static test. Glue the tip on the blank run a string thru the tip braces to a stationary weight and pull the rod into an arc. Now put the reel on and run the line from the reel thru the temporarily located guides thru the tip ring to a sinker heavy enough to describe the path of the line along the blank. Eliminate any sharp angles and that tells you where your runners should be. There's no real tension on the guides and you can move them around easily. I can't guess at how many guides you might need unless I can actually see this in action. Do not attempt to put a bend in the rod using the line from the reel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 10:53PM by Lynn Behler.

Thank you Lynn!

Lynn,
I am curious about part of your statement:

"Do not attempt to put a bend in the rod using the line from the reel."

The reason that I am curious about this statement is that I do the exact same thing that you do with respect to taping on guides, putting on a tip top and threading line through the guides and the tip top.

However, at that time, I pull out about 50 feet of line and then, use my toes to run the line through and put enough tension on the line so that the blank is in a typical fish catching arch.

With the blank in the typical fish catching arch, I carefully look over the line path to be sure that there are just enough guides so that the loaded line is nicely following the contour of the loaded rod blank. If I find a big gap or gaps between the line and blank, a guide or guides need to be moved or additional guides added. However, if the line follows the blank very closely, then one needs to think about spacing the guides out a bit and or deleting guides.

One should have only enough guides on the rod for the line to follow the contour of the loaded blank and no more.

Good luck

This is the two line vs one line concepts for static guide placement. The two line concept is explained very nicely by Tom in the above library link.
Norm

Norm,
Would you share with me how you came to recommend those measurements for runner placement? Are you using a formula, or just sussing it out from experience? How do you know the first guide from the tip should be at only 3.5"?
Many thanks,
Dan

Dan, a lot of it comes from experience, also seeing what other people do, trying to work in the number of guides I think are needed and finally static loading and seeing how the line looks from reel to tiptop. If you look at most guide spacing charts you will quickly see that the first guide is usually somewhere between 4" to 5" from the tip top, and this is when using conventional size guides. For smaller microguides I like to have the first guide about 9 to 11 cm from the tiptop (about 3.5" - 4.5"). You know approximately where your stripper (19"-21" from spool tip) and the choke guide goes based on reel size and line used for the KR concept so you fit the reduction guides progressively between them. Then you fill in the remaining space with your runners. I like to progressively space the runners. The smaller the running guides the closer they need to be. Thus you need more lower/smaller running guides than you do using higher/larger runners. As far as the number of guides to use; for conventional spinning rods it has alway been 1 per foot plus 1. For smaller micro guides I like 1 per foot plus 2, so for your rod that would be 10 guides. With the reel and line in place l like to see the line give a nice straight line from the bottom of the spool to the choke runner then a straight line from the choke to the tiptop. This straight line test helps make sure your reduction train is ok, and that you are using the appropriately sized guides. Static loading helps to get the final positions for your guides and usually requires little to no tweaking. However, if you use to many or to few guides static loading will point this out very effectively. Finally, I like to test cast the rod. Test casting will let you know if everything is ok. I think everyone who fishes know when a rod casts well or not. Sounds complicated but it is much simpler than you think and for the most part logical. I hope this helps.
Norm

Norm,
That really fills in the blanks (ugh.. terrible pun, sorry) for me. Great stuff, thanks!
Dan