I understand that different rod builders have different ideas and techniques for guide sizing, numbers, and whatnot. I'm curious to know if the same builder will use the same guide sizes and spacing over and over again for the same kind of Rod?

Let's use Tom as an example (I'm new to the site and the art of rod building, and I really only recognize his name as a well known rod builder): Do you go through all the steps to find optimal guide sizes and spacing that you outline in your book for every rod you make, or do you know that if you are building a 7ft spinning rod for bass fishing that you will use the same setup over and over again? Are the differences between blanks of the same manufacturer so slight that once you've found the optimal setup, you can simply "wash, rinse, repeat"? Or are there enough differences that a full on test will result in different setups from rod to rod (cetaris paribus)?

Thanks!

What rod blanks, guide brands and configurations do champion distance casters and accuracy casters use? Or should beginners and average anglers use something else, and why?

What rod blanks, guide brands and configurations do champion distance casters and accuracy casters use? Or should beginners and average anglers use something else, and why?

The reel and the line play a major role in the guide selection, particularly for a spinning outfit. Casting rods not as much, but the particular application may require a heavier duty guide, or allow for a lighter style. If you're talking about the same model rod blank for the same application with at least a similar reel and line, then most likely the same set up you found to work well on the first will work equally well on the others. Differences between the same model of a quality rod blank will be very minimal.

There are a lot of variables in play but once you get a few rods under your belt you will tend to instinctively know where to begin. In the meantime, if you have a specific application in mind, a forum such as this one isn't a bad place to ask for guide type and style advice.

.................

That is not my question. I was asking if, once someone decides on the guide sizes, numbers, spacing etc, for a given type of rod (length, power, action), do they then use that same set up every time they build another rod of the same type (length, power, action)?

I realize that one person may choose a 20, 10, 5 reduction train for a spinning layout while another person uses a 25, 10, 4 layout. I get that different builders will use different set ups. But does the SAME builder use the SAME or DIFFERENT set up for the SAME type of build?

If I'm absolutely honest, what I'd like to ask Tom Kirkman is if he does use basically the same layout (number of guides and size of guides) for builds of the same purpose, would he be willing to share what that layout is???? :) I'm mainly interested in bass fishing using 14lb mono (20lb braid) or lighter line, and rod lengths of 6', 6' 6", and 7' 0" with a MH power and fast action. If Tom was building such a rod(s), I would love to know his thoughts of what size guides he would use and how many. And... if he were so willing, could he give the information for both a casting and spinning layout (New concept and micro)?

If someone else wants to share their opinion on what they would use, then please do so)) OR.... If you are of the opinion that, a noticeable improvement can be achieved by going through all the steps outlined in Tom's book then please tell me that too.

I use the same reduction guide (mainly 25/12/5.5 or 20/10/5.5) for the same rod/reel/line , difference may be found in my running guide.

I too use sometime 16/8/5.5 but only if light braid will be used and I go as radical as 16/7 on some of my personnal builds.

________________________________________
@+
Eric
[www.emfishing.fr]

Again, if you're talking about the same model rod blank for the same application with at least a similar reel and line, then most likely the same set up you found to work well on the first will work equally well on the others. Differences in action or power between the same model of a quality rod blank will be very minimal.

What guide sizes I use, how many and where, is only applicable for what you're building if you're using the same blank, same reel and same line. Guide systems particularly spinning, tend to built around the reel size and line type. It would be impossible to give you a guide type, sizes and location that will be optimum for MH Power (whatever that is), fast action (how fast?) and with 14 pound line that will work every time out on a particular length rod. The size of the reel, handle length and type, etc., etc, all play a role.

..................

Gib,
Generally speaking most of my rod builds for spinning - use similar guide setups.
Most of the rod builds for casting rods also use similar guide setups.

After all, a rod is a rod is a rod. A guide is a guide is a guide. The physics of line flow and rod bend do not change from rod to rod.

The only real difference is that if a rod has a faster or slower action - with respect to the speed of the tip bending; there will be more or fewer running guides and closer or further guid spacing in the upper section of the rod.

Good luck

Gib, I could imagine you are thinking you aren't getting a straight answer. Rest assured that isn't the case.

Lets say you buy several 7' MH bass blanks, of the same model#, from a respectable name. You also buy several reels, of the same model#, from a respectable name. Most would feel okay with "taking the steps to find optimal guide sizes and spacing" on just one blank/reel/line combo and using that layout on all of the rods providing you were using the same reel/line on all of them.

However if we were then to buy several of another brand 7" MH bass blank (or for that matter a different brand reel or line) we would need to re-establish "optimal guide sizes and spacing" all over again. What one brand calls a 7' MH bass blank can be very different from another brand. Also spinning reel rod guide layout is highly dependent on reel spool diameter and the line used. So no, we can't copy info from a previous build simply because a different blank/reel/line is supposed to be equal.

Now all of this is if we wish to have the best possible outcome. Clearly many anglers buy a store bought where the company that made it has no idea what reel and line they will fish. Yes, the rod will work....but no, it won't work as well as possible.

Just to be clear.....yes we are saying a rod should be built to use a particular reel (size) and line (type). This is far more important for spinning rods but shouldn't be ignored for casting/trolling reels.

Now keep in mind all of this is for the custom rod builder looking for the best performance (a.k.a. anal retentive type:) A given custom rod builder might be looking to minimize rod weight, mazimize casting distance, get optimum balance point, maximize fish fighting ability, or something else. So not everyone will agree on the same layout for a particular rod/reel/line. However it should be pretty close for a particular rod/reel/line cobo intended to catch the same fish with the same lure in identical waters.

Clear as I can get in answering your question. Sorry if you don't like the answer and/or can't buy it.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

That's about as well as the poster's question can be answered.

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Russ hit the nail on the head. Gib, I assume you asked the question because of all the published guide spacing charts put out there by various rod companies which imply that all rods of a given length would use the same size and number of guides with the same spacing irrespective of anything else. For many beginners these guide spacing charts imply a 'one size fits all' approach. Most experienced builders understand that these guide placement charts are far from optimal, and, as mentioned above, take steps to optimize rod performance by taking into account how the rod is going to be used, the power and action of the blank, the reel size and the type of line that is going to be used. Final optimization of guide placement involves static testing and finally test casting. There are a lot of variables involved in choosing optimal guide size and placement, therefore it is difficult to put together repeatable guide sets and layouts for different rod of the same length.
Norm

Thanks for all the input everyone. I appreciate and am understanding all your points. On another thread I wrote that my 14 year old son is the one building the rods. I am doing a lot of reading to feed him information that will be helpful for his "development."

On the anglers resource page it says that a casting rod using the NGC always starts with a KW10. And one using a KR Convept always starts with the RV6. So, if all of you are building a casting rod with Fuji guides, are you always starting with the KW10 or the RV6, or do you merely take that as a suggestion and use what you think is best? On the same note, if you do use the same stripper guide for a casting rod, what would be the comparable guide for ATC guides or the PacBay minimas?

Since we order parts for ta rod all at once, we don't have a big supply of different size guides on hand to experiment with a lot of different guide sizes. What would you recommend to someone like us do when they order guides for a new build? Maybe order a few extra running guides and maybe 2 or 3 different stripper guide sizes, with the idea that, over time we will have built up a decent supply of different guides for some builds (and the extra money we spend now will be saved later when maybe we don't need to order guides for a build)? Is there something else you might suggest?

Thanks,
Gib

Casting rods are a different animal from spinning rods. If you are talking about a casting rod for bass using a low profile casting reel, the size 10 KW or the size 6 RV guide can be used with great success on a lot of different bass casting rods. Both of these guides are the same height and the KW 10 can therefore be used with both the NGC and KR concept. The RV is usually used with the KR. For the NGC the reduction guide is usually a size 8 or 7, for the KR the reduction guide is usually a size 5.5 KW. The line coming from a low profile reel is not coming off in coils as with a spinning reel but in a straighter line as it passies through a small pawl guide which helps to control the line. This takes a lot, but not all, of the chaos out of line when being cast. Thus controlling coils is not an issue, but you still want a stripper guide high enough and close enough to keep the undulating line off the blank and control it, so it flows smoothly. In addition, guide placement is less important than it is with spinning and can can be determined nicely by static testing. In general Casting rods with the guides on top tend to use more guides in order to keep the line off the blank than spinning rods where the guides are underneath. If you do a spiral wrap you usually reduce the number of running guides needed. Also, casting NGC rods will usually use fewer running guides than the casting KR casting rods, because the running guides used are larger. Overall the casting NGC will use runners down to size 6, and the casting KR concept will use smaller runners from size 5.5 down to size 4. Most casting guides from different manufacturer are similar in size so you can substitute another brand if you wish.
For spinning rods the size and placement of the guides are more dependent on the size of the reel and the type of line used. In general for a KR spinning rod, if you are using 10 to 20 pound test braid on a reel up to a size 3000, you can use use either a KL 20H, 10H, and 5.5M or a 16H, 8H, and 5.5M reduction train with the KB/KT runners of your choiice. You can use the KR GPS to get a good starting point for guide placement. If you want to substitute a different brand of guide for a KR like build you can use match guides, they are the only type of guide similar in height for the same ring size. For example, the PacBay Match (M) guides (20, 10, and 6 or 16, 8, and 6) are suitable substitutes for the Fuji KR guides when combined with minima F guides as runners. It should be noted that Y framed guides, used in an NGC rod, are lower in height for the same size ring. A number of different manufacturers make Y frame guides which are all similar in height, and these can be substituted in a NGC spin rod build. So in conclusion, whether you are making spinning or casting rods can can put together a good set of guides for what you want. Just order a few extra running guides, to make sure you have enough. Hope this helps. If not keep asking questions.
Norm
PS - if you want to experiment try the minima guides in chrome, they are not only the lightest guides around but also very good and very inexpensive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2016 11:39PM by Norman Miller.

Gib, you came to the right place. My answer to your first question - is yes, I do. Send your address to forhanrods@ gmail.com and I'll send your boy a copy of my color sheet I fininished in 1999 after many years of testing . The sheet is my drawing of 6, 6 1/2, and 7 ft bass rods, both spinning and baitcasting. It shows all measurements , guide names and sizes, etc. If your boy likes what he sees, send me your phone number and I'll call and answer his questions and go over the Forhan locking wrap and the spiral wrap. For all others that might be interested, show up at the Expo, I'll be there one last time, same sheet, same info.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2016 03:29PM by Richard Forhan.