Can someone please help me understand this? I was asking for advice from the local crowd about blank selection for trolling live mackerel from my kayak. Was told you want a soft tip to absorb the shock (because braid is often used to cut through kelp) with "lots of backbone." So my thoughts were to go with a moderate action to make up for lack of stretch on the braid. Well apparently I was way off. You gotta have a strong backbone to pull these suckers (yellowtail) in fast so they don't get tangles in the lobster traps. This means a fast tip to the locals.

I have seen videos of people bringing in monsters like giant amberjack on parabolic rods. It seems to me these have plenty of backbone, it's just that the backbone bends further into the blank. Am I missing something? As long as I can move the fish with a given setup, it is accomplishingg the same goal right? Why are west coast fisherman so @#$%& bent on fast action? Or am I looking at this all wrong?

I have no direct experience with jacks or kayaks, but I think that power is the most important characteristic of the rod to move the fish fast. However, where the action gets into it is providing a little shock relief on the strike, setting the hook properly, and fast loading for clearing the kelp. That describes a fast action, powerful rod.

I found that for flat line trolling for king salmon, the best blank I ended up using, which provided reliable hook sets from a rod holder, was a pretty powerful mag-bass action, extra fast.

Like Michael, I have no experience with the type of fishing you describe. I do know that if you need to clear a bait of weeds, or if you need to rip braided line through weeds, that a fast action is definitely preferable over a slower, moderate or moderate fast action blank. The slower actions just doesn't supply the "pop" you need to break the bait free of weeds, or to cause the line to cut the weeds.

As a bass fisherman, I like a fast or extra fast action for moving fish on the hook set. Once the fish it hooked up, a fast action can cause problems, especially with braided line. Braided line with its lack of stretch, goes limp much faster than other line types. If a fast fish swims at you, you're not going to keep up with it by reeling, regardless of what gear ratio your reel has. That's where the slower actions are a big plus. They keep the line tighter and give you a chance to catch up to a fast fish, or they keep the line tight when a fish jumps.

I was going to build a flipping/pitching rod for bass on a moderate fast action blank because when you're fishing up close and personal with a short amount of line out, the chances the line will go slack is greater. The problem I have is ....... the blanks with moderate fast actions that are intended for flipping blanks, are IMO WAY under powered.

I guess what I'm trying to say is .... and this is just my thinking. If am going to use a blank or a rod that has a moderate or moderate fast action, and I want it to move fish, it is going to be a lot more powerful than what I would use if it were a fast action rod or blank. The blank with the moderate fast action that I was going to, and still may end up building a flipping rod on, is a blank that is rated for up to 3 oz baits. If I were to build flipping rod with a fast action. 1 oz. is more than adequate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2016 07:53AM by David Baylor.

The longer the rod, the further you move the fish per pump of the rod. So while you may be able to move more weight with a slower action rod, you have to perform a lot more rod pumping to move it as far. This effectively slows down the rate at which you are moving the fish. In that regard, a slower action rod is a "shorter" rod.

Conversely, at the same physical length a fast action rod is effectively a "longer" rod. Remembering that you can't get something for nothing of course, they require more effort on the fisherman's part to move the same load. Assuming you can do it, however, you can move that load (fish) along at a much greater pace.

Fast action live bait rods might be the ticket for what you're wanting to do.

........................

Tom,

Your analogy of the fast action rod, ("a longer rod"), and the mod. fast rod, (" a shorter rod"), is outstanding. I had never thought of it that way, but so very true!

Don Campbell
don@sensorfishingrods.com

I seem to remember reading somewhere that fast action rods, beyond the fish fighting advantages Tom mentions, are better in a kayak because they keep potentially bad things away from the boat. In a kayak, all of your equipment is surrounding you at (roughly) waist level, not to mention the surface of the water. Using a blank that flexes in the upper levels allows you to load, cast and fight fish up and away from the boat and all the related "stuff" that might cause problems. It makes sense, any kayakers want to chime in?? Anyone heard similar things?

Strictly speaking from a kayak perspective, it is very helpful if you have a rod that is long enough to allow you to pass the tip around the bow and thus move with the fish from side to side on the boat. Having a fish sound and dive under the boat and to the opposite side can make things go badly if you can't get the rod around to the other side of the boat. Of course, a long rod gives the fish a longer level so he can apply more force on the fisherman.

Everything is a compromise of some sort.

...............

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was going to build a flipping/pitching rod for
> bass on a moderate fast action blank because when
> you're fishing up close and personal with a short
> amount of line out, the chances the line will go
> slack is greater. The problem I have is .......
> the blanks with moderate fast actions that are
> intended for flipping blanks, are IMO WAY under
> powered.

That's kind of what I was thinking, to keep the line tight. But based off Toms info, it is a trade off. Fortunately these beasts seem to dive for cover. I don't think I've ever heard a report of one swimming toward an angler. So I suppose I'll go for a fast blank, probably in the 6'6" range, or cut a 7' down to 6'9" or so. That should be plenty to clear the bow.

I'm new to kayak fishing, but your point sounds valid Jim.

Randy,

Shoot me an email. I believe we are fairly close together in So. Cal.

Don Campbell
don@sensorfishingrods.com

Randy,
I'd wait till I had the grip length that is best for you figured out before picking your length. 11 - 12 inches rear grip length for casting rods, 10 inches or so on spinning rods seems pretty close for my use. What you wear, your size and build decide this, a rod that's always snagging on something is no fun in a kayak.

I find this issue to be very confusing. If it's a big fish vs. a powerful rod setup, fished from a kayak. At some point do you find you're reeling yourself to the fish instead of the other way around? I have no experience in this area and have no plan to get any, but I fished a 12ft. aluminum johnboat a few times and a 3lb. bass was capable of moving the boat.

Lynn, I was wondering the same thing. But whether the action is fast or slow, every force has an equal reaction, so whatever force one is applying to the fish, the fish is applying to the fisherman and his kayak. Seems to me the arguments for a fast action of adequate length to clear the kayak are the winners. Nothing one can do about the forces. They will be what the angler makes them.

Yes indeed. I watched a fishing buddy (admittedly jealously) get dragged about for about 10 minutes in the yak. There was some concern as the fish pulled him around a lobster pot and associated buoy (sp?). But it ended up working out and he landed it. I was meanwhile trolling a diving Rapala and ended up connecting with a smaller one, but it shook the hook when I had it about 4' below the surface.

This is just my thoughts on landing fish from a kayak, or even a canoe (which I used to do years ago) to some extent, and it has to do with rod position when bringing a fish to your fixed position in the vessel. The rod is usually held with the rod tip high. Almost vertical in more than a few instances. Such a position, is a classic way to high stick a rod. A fast action rod is going to exacerbate the condition.

I'm not disagreeing with any of the posts referencing the fast action being a good choice. I'm just pointing out something that a person may want to consider when they're selecting a blank. And when they're landing a fish. Of course if a long handled net is being used to land the fish, then high sticking may not be a problem. Also, the shorter length rod being mentioned recently is going to help as well.

Just something to think about.

And I've seen some shows where people are fishing saltwater in kayaks. One guy got towed about a mile by a big shark before he cut the line. Can't say I blame him lol

Since you will be trolling live mackerel casting performance is incidental and the yellowtail will hook themselves. You want a fish-fighting tool that will move and land fish quickly, much the same requirements as anglers fishing for groupers near structure. A short, stiff rod with a lot of power best fills these requirements. You might try lifting a weight with rods featuring different length grips and fore-grips to see which works best for you.

Since you will be trolling live mackerel casting performance is incidental and the yellowtail will hook themselves. You want a fish-fighting tool that will move and land fish quickly, much the same requirements as anglers fishing for groupers near structure. A short, stiff rod with a lot of power best fills these requirements. You might try lifting a weight with rods featuring different length grips and fore-grips to see which works best for you.

Phil I'm glad you mentioned the short stout rod. So whats the difference between say a 5 foot rod with barely any action and a 7 foot rod that seats bending at two feet from the tip. Seems like the "effective" length of the rod would be similar, but with the added benefit of keeping pressure on the fish if for some reason it bolts toward you.

This is something else I've thought of, but I don't see too many short rods over here. Haven't been out on a tuna tour, just the 1/2-3/4 day trips. Don't think a shorty rod would work well from the yak for reasons Tom wrote about.

Phil I'm glad you mentioned the short stout rod. So whats the difference between say a 5 foot rod with barely any action and a 7 foot rod that seats bending at two feet from the tip. Seems like the "effective" length of the rod would be similar, but with the added benefit of keeping pressure on the fish if for some reason it bolts toward you.

This is something else I've thought of, but I don't see too many short rods over here. Haven't been out on a tuna tour, just the 1/2-3/4 day trips. Don't think a shorty rod would work well from the yak for reasons Tom wrote about.

Randy, I'll point out something that I don't think is being made clear to you.

A fishing rod is a third class lever. On those parabolic "amberjack" rods the lever length is reduced as the blank bends. That makes for less strain on your back but less movement of the fish. Yellowtail and amberjack are from the same family. However I'd say the yellowtail are much more likely to head for the rocks/bottom. You need to know when you pull on that rod you are moving that fish and not having (only) the blank bend more. If you wanted less pain in the back you wouldn't be after that particular fish:)

Given all that I think your best bet is a traditional fast action composite "live bait" blank. Seeker and Calstar are proven names. Baston RCLB is a great value. I'd pair it up with a narrow spool reel, like a baja special, so that as line goes out gear ratio is effectivily reduced......or use a two-speed reel. You need to get that fish off the bottom fast.....and you need to be able to get him away from a sea lion....when called for. That calls for power....as in a blank that bends only so far before you get into its real backbone.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Thanks as always Russ! I'll take it easy on my back when I get too old to fish ha ha! I'll probably go for the Rainshadow (Batson). I've already built two that I'm a huge fan of, one RCLB and one RCJB. I don't want to put extra money into this a la Calstar or Seeker. This will just be something to throw a Senator 112H on that's just sitting in my garage. Also to bring as an extra for my son or when my non fishing friends go on the party boats with me.

I like the Rainshadows a lot. Was looking into Gator Blanks as well, because of the price, but I think when you get to the action, length and power combo I'd be interested in, it's only a $10 or $12 step up to Batson.