Hello all,

not new to this board but I cannot get my old handle (hydrocynus) to register. Anyways, I have a recurrent problem with the stripping guides of all my TFO rods (TiCr, TiCrX, Axiom but not yet on my BVK). The problem is that the ring pops up because the frame encapsulating the ring rusts out and brakes. I have built fly rods using Alconite guides, Hardloy guides and pacific bay guides without rust problems.

I wanted to replace all the guides with Recoil RSG guides but the cost is too prohibitive. So, in your opinion, should I go with just a stainless steel frame, alconite ring which are quite light (it seems that titanium frame is not much of a weight gain) or do you think of a better good value for the money alternative? Also, the oversized guides on the TFO seem overkill to me. Would it be OK to lower the size if the guides, yet, still use the same spacing? Thank you to give me the specific reference of the guide you advise me to go with.


Thank you very much for your help.
Best to all.


PS. I wade and kayak flyfish nearly exclusively so my rods have great exposure to the salt.

I stopped using the recoil stripper guides due to the noise created while stripping line but I do like their snake guides. I use pac Bay minima double foot guides for stripper guides. Very durable and light so I prefer them over other guides. The recoils can sound like finger nails on a chalkboard. Good luck

I live 300 feet from the ocean and kayak fish also. When I return from fishing the FIRST thing I do is rinse off rods, reels, and lines with fresh water from a hose, ALWAYS, and RIGHT AWAY. The next morning is way too late. Along with spin and conventional tackle I have six or eight fly rods, including a TiCrx and a BVK. For these 20 or so rods I have replaced 2 guides because of corrosion in the last 15 years.

Serge,
Titanium frames are corrosion resistant, but are more expensive.
I would however, still rinse the guides before storage.
Reducing the guide size will minimize abuse and keep the ring from popping out better. Spacing shouldn't need to be changed.

Gene

Thanks for the tips guys. Please keep them coming!

As for rinsing, the rods take a shower with me when I come back or are hosed down gently with city water (important as I assume that if you are on well water, the potential low redox could create problems). I also had friends who had similar problems and had the ring pop up during trips oversea (Amazon and Costa Rica).

Note that I never had a ring pop out on any of my Sage, Albright, Scott, Redington or custom made rods using the aforementioned guides. So, although I might not rinse correctly my guides, I do think that TFO guides have a tendency to have their rings come loose.

I love the TFO rods for their price and casting or fighting capabilities depending on the model, but I dislike the guides which are custom made for TFO by their factory in Korea. I did voice my concern to Rick (I have tested many rods and reels for him) and I think they improved the guides (e.g. no problem with their BVK rods so far, so I will leave the guides on these alone for now). Rick and his staff did ask me how I rinse my rods after fishing as, as many mentioned above, most of their customers do not have any problems with the guides. Rick also mentioned testing the recoil guides on the TFO rods (I asked him why not since I like them on the Loomis GLX) and reported the noise issues.

So, thank you for the advises! I probably do something wrong with TFO rods, so this is why I want to remedy this problem by changing the guides. It is a piece of mine for me only. :-)

Cheers!
Serge

I use only titanium frame stripping guides for saltwater rods. Most recently I have been using Amtac Ringlock with titanium frames, but I have also used Batson Alps XN titanium guides. They are more expensive, but you are only using 1 or 2. They are also lighter and corrosion resistant.

I am not sure if there are any solid titanium guide frames. I think they would be brutally expensive. I have never had or even heard of a REC nickel-titanium (ni-ti) guides corroding at all, but fly rod ni-ti stripping guides are squeaky. Most advertised "titanium" guides are titanium vapor coated to the depth of a few microns. Depending upon the base metal which is coated with titanium they might or might not corrode.

It was stated that you had no problems with the strippers on your BVK rod, which uses the TFO tactical series guides. These tactical series guides look a lot like Pac Bay minima guides. My question is: What is the difference between the tactical series's guides and the PAC Bay minima guides? I know the tactical series guides are not sold to rod builders, but it seems that a suitable substitute might be minima guides with either a stainless frame or titanium frame. Both are very cost effective and durable.
Norm

I have a friend that is sponsored by TFO and he uses their fly and spin rods for charters. I haven't repaired his fly guides but his spin guides are a problem. They look more like minima 3 guides but not made as well. I started replacing them with minima 4 guides and they work great. He just received new rods from TFO and now they use fuji alconite guides.

Better check with TFO re voiding warranty.
Herb

Good point herb. That's great warranty to have.

Rick Pope just wrote me that the Fuji Alconite are on their conventional Inshore Professional one piece rods but not on any other rods.

I do not think that TFO would void a warranty because one puts a different hardware on them. They are a great company and I do not think they deny claims. I have hook keepers on mine and also a shrink tube over the handle and these come back when I send them the rods for a stripper change. I assume you will get the same treatment I receive. Rick assures me that returns for stripping guides rusting on their line of fly rods are rare. This assertion is not true for their conventional rods that used to have proprietary rod guides.

I have decided to change all of my stripping guides on my TFO TiCr, Professional, TiCRX and Axiom (that is a bunch of rods) with Pac Bay double foot minima guides with the Ti coating. I also will use one size smaller guides where appropriate.

Thanks a lot for your help! What a great board.

Serge

I like the N frame Pac Bay guides on fly rods, they match the snake guides pretty closely.

The 316SS frame of the Amtac ringlock really drew my interest! If it is really 316L SS, then it is unsurpassed SS (better than 304SS). Not as good as titanium but likely cheaper. What does Pac Bay use for the frame of their minima guides. I understand they are coated with Ti, but what is the frame made of?
Thanks!

Not all the Minimas are Ti coated.

From what I understand most a use stainless frame (probably 304ss) which in some cases are Ti PVD coated. Two models have solid titanium alloy frames, one of which is Ti PVD coated (TiBlack), and the other is not (titanium).

[www.mudhole.com]

[www.fishpacbay.com]

Norm

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not sure if there are any solid titanium
> guide frames. I think they would be brutally
> expensive. I have never had or even heard of a REC
> nickel-titanium (ni-ti) guides corroding at all,
> but fly rod ni-ti stripping guides are squeaky.
> Most advertised "titanium" guides are titanium
> vapor coated to the depth of a few microns.
> Depending upon the base metal which is coated with
> titanium they might or might not corrode.


American Tackle advertises their Titan Ring Lock guides as "solid titanium". Are they lying to us?

[www.americantackle.us]

Bob,
From previous posts on the forum:

i Todd,

Thought I’d weigh in here.

Angler’s Resource should be able to tell you what was made in titanium frames and what wasn’t. Both their titanium and Ti coated frames can look similar in color and sheen which tends to be bright or “titanium” looking. I cannot speak for Fuji but I don’t remember them offering titanium frames with back finish. Although you can deposition titanium frames to have a dark or even black finish, it adds considerable cost to an already expensive product only to look similar to a less expensive product so it doesn’t make sense. I know many of our customers want a raw greyish titanium frame to look the part instead of a highly polished or color-coated frame.

For years some frames have been described as “titanium” that were only Ti coated to give the impression that they were titanium. Fuji was the first for solid titanium ceramic frame guides. We were first to have a comprehensive line of titanium guides but now others have joined in offering titanium guides with some still figuring out how to produce them. A properly Ti coated stainless can look just like titanium and even protect against corrosion like titanium but should not be confused with solid titanium as they can serve different purposes.

We use “solid” as already pointed out, to refer the fact that it is titanium and not a Ti coated stainless frame. Also mentioned is that titanium used for guide frames is an alloy, as 100% pure(if even possible) would not be affordable or likely not survive the stamping, folding and molding of the material during manufacturing. Titanium is also used in various grades of hardness for the very same reasons. Choosing the correct alloy or grades can make all the difference in the process and the end product. For instance we will vary grades for different guide styles/sizes/manufacturing as well as incorporation into the detailed frame design requirements, such as our Ring Lock guides.

Our goal for solid titanium frame guides is to have frames strong enough for the intended rod/line size usage but at the same time be as light weight and flexible as possible allowing each rod(blank) to perform at its best. That flexibility and weight reduction far outweighs the benefits of corrosion proof that titanium is renowned for. Although both titanium and coated stainless frames have their place in pricing and application, we tend to see titanium is an ultimate performance rather than endurance oriented product.

Best Regards,

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company


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Mike I can confirm that American-Tackle Titan, guides spark white. I had 1 extra from a build that I just hit on the grinder to confirm that. I unfortunately don't have a so called plated one, But I would say no, As the titanium coating would be measured in a millionth of an inch as far as coating thickness goes, They just don't give this stuff away, But a millionth of an inch would still provide super Corrosion resistance as in fresh water. Now I pulled my Metal Finishers Digest which is the Bible for all Plating all metal coatings this is what I found, {Titanium is a very active metal which cannot be electroplated (out of a conventional aqueous bath). Cladding is a physical process where a skin of titanium is mechanically bonded to the substrate by a vacuum deposited layer of titanium}. This tells me the process is more then likely a vacuum furnace deposited layer of titanium the same that is use on drills and cutting tools not a true plating process. Now when I went to American Tackle web site they list these Titan guides as {Solid Titanium A-Frame Spinning Guides} Now you have to realize there are various grades of Titanium so I would not say any of these guides are going to have the same Grade Titanium that are use for an aircraft engine turbine That is explained here {[gmttitanium.com]} but you have to understand it is still 100% Titanium, Different grades for different applications, some may take more heat but may be very brittle and crack easy some take less heat but are more flexible , Some harder some softer so you can work with it with a hand file. Aircraft turbine grade titanium you are not going to hand file on you will be there all day and maybe remove .005 thousands of an inch. Now I'm just throwing this in as there different grades of stainless steel just like titanium 18-8 being the highest grade here is the make-up of different grades { [www.bosunsupplies.com] } Just remember all these metal are made up of alloys. The stainless link, shows the alloys that make up each grade of stainless such as Chromium % the Nickle% and so on. I hope you can understand it's hard to explain in layman's terms on a web site but I did the best I could. Tight Lines Jaa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2015 11:30PM by Jay Dubay.

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No guides are made from pure titanium it is very brittle and very expensive. So guides labeled as solid titanium are in fact solid titanium alloys to give them strength and other desirable properties. There are different alloys used and they are all corrosion proof. This is similar to Stainless Steel which is an iron alloy and comes in different formulations. Most guide manufacturers now make solid titanium alloy guides. It should be mentioned that for titanium labeled tip tops the frame holding the ring is made from a titanium alloy but the tube in most cases is not. Not sure why the tubes are not titanium alloy. So if there are corrosion issues they occur with the tip tops. Some people will wrap on a single foot guide as a tip top to avoid this problem. Hope this helps.
Norm

Actually, I was being a little facetious. I realize that the solid titanium would have to have an alloys in order to be workable. I just wanted to call attention to the fact that there are "solid titanium" alloy guides available and not just the Ti coated guides.