Hi to all you happy wrappers, and even the grumpy ones if there are any.
While I am rather conservative in the way I approach most things, particularly fabricating in which I include rod building, I also realize the importance and benefits modern technology. But as with all aspects of life there are checks and balances, and the majority of the time to gain on one side of the scale results in a loss on the other. After building a half dozen rods, I have developed a wild hair to step out of my comfort zone and investigate the possibility of utilizing some newer technology. I would be graciously pleased to receive both pros and cons from all of you regarding:
1.) “Wave” guides. Talk about fast choking! I am comfortable with the theory and it seems to a good idea, but what about the other side of the scale?
2.) “Acid” or spiral guide wrapped rods. There is no doubt where the name “Acid” came from. I understand the principal but what are the down sides?
I have already heard the sales pitches but would prefer to learn both the pros and cons from regular people who fish these unconventional builds. What better place to learn than this site. Prior thanks to all responding!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I'm not aware of any real downside to spiral wrapped rods, other than the necessity of having to educate some customers on the mechanics involved. I supposed there could be some fishing techniques or applications where it might not be appropriate, but in general, guides belong on the bottom of fishing rods.

................

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> I'm not aware of any real downside to spiral
> wrapped rods, other than the necessity of having
> to educate some customers on the mechanics
> involved. I supposed there could be some fishing
> techniques or applications where it might not be
> appropriate, but in general, guides belong on the
> bottom of fishing rods.
>
> ................

I totally agree. Guides belong on the bottom of fishing rods.

If you do a search of the subject you will find TONS of information saying the same thing.

John Allgood



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2016 12:59PM by John Allgood.

If you are going to take the plunge ...... put airwave casting guides in an spiral configuration. It works :)

Chris Richer
Iroquois ON

My experience has been that darn near any guide configuration works, but which one works best? I am suspicious of casual judgments of the performance of various types of rod builds. How experienced is the reporter, and what are his motives? It is not difficult to perform fair, objective, scientific tests to determine actual best results of rod performance.

In many cases that would be true - at some point one guide system is going to work about as well as another - you can only do so much and go so far. But in the care of spiral wrapping (if that's included in your post) we know that level arm mechanics dictate that rods with the guides on the underside of the rod are going to be more stable in nearly all fish fighting situations. That one isn't subjective.

...............

Thank you to those responding so far. I agree with Tom and John, as well as the physics and obvious, that guides perform better on the bottom of a rod. Transitioning from the top to bottom has me inquiring, though. I have already thought of Chris’ suggestion of using airwave guides to Acid wrap my vintage FG saltwater casting rod. That would certainly be optimizing my composite business motto of “vintage craftsmanship utilizing advanced technology”. Without committing one way or the other, Phil reflects my concerns. While performing tests may not be too difficult, I would prefer to avoid the associated cost and using up a vintage blank. Hence my questions and post.
This topic has received a good response in a short period of time and, while thankful for such, I hope the replies continue. Don’t be shy! Put in your vintage 2 cents / modern $2’s worth.
Thanks to all.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

To satisfy my own curiosity about the "wave" guides I put some 30'so on an 11' surf rod for West coast stripers. I'm not sure if they intended them to be used on such a long rod but I did it anyways. Not a single wind knot in the 7 months I've been using them, not they have been a huge problem in the past but it's pretty awesome none the less. The only potential issue (which I can't say for certain) is a little loss in distance when laying in to heavier aerodynamic lures (2.5-3oz metal). The line speed is so fast the guides can't keep up, seems the rapid choking can only handle so much. It doesn't cause any problems just seems to slightly decrease distance. In fact I don't know if I should call it a problem, really just gets to the whole point of custom rod building. Using the proper components for what you intend the rod to be used for. That being said, I'm still very impressed with the guides.

A lot of your issue with the distance could be in how many guides you actually have on that rod.

Ron Weber

Mark:

You do not need to "use up" a blank to test the performance and effectiveness of the guide train. You can tape the guide onto the blank and test, and if that is not secure enough, just quickly wrap the guides on and do not finish them while you are testing. It took me two attempts to get casting microwaves and sprial wrap to work for me. I did put finish on before I ran into the issue. But, a little heat, a popsicle stick, and the guides were removed.

Chris

Chris Richer
Iroquois ON

Keep that great info coming!!! Chris, I will definitely keep your contact info = thanks.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

One of the possible down side to guides on the bottom of a rod is the inherent attempt of the line to pull the guide off rather than push it into the rod while under tension (fish on). In effect, the wrap is solely relied upon to retain the guide on the underside of a rod rather than simply keeping it located while mounted on the top. While probably not of concern with fish under 10lbs, hard charging heavyweights over 30lbs, not to mention something like a 100lb+ tuna, would certainly put a lot more tension on those wraps. I am certainly not disagreeing with anyone, just trying to keep the fire stocked. Anyone got more wood?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I have never seen a rod with spiral wrapped micro guides. How do you prevent the line from rubbing against the blank when it bends?

You put the guides on Static test And let the line tell you where they may do the best Then test cast I have found that the static test tells me where the guides go A straight line or as well as you can get If the line tends to rub the blank Try closer together and add one more Nothing written in stone and all guides can and most of the time be moved around to get the best performance
Also a good idea is to cast line out and ( under pressure ) reel the line in to see how the reel handles it Then move the guides to correct any issues

Bill - willierods.com

Mark Talmo Wrote:
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> One of the possible down side to guides on the
> bottom of a rod is the inherent attempt of the
> line to pull the guide off rather than push it
> into the rod while under tension (fish on). In
> effect, the wrap is solely relied upon to retain
> the guide on the underside of a rod rather than
> simply keeping it located while mounted on the
> top. While probably not of concern with fish under
> 10lbs, hard charging heavyweights over 30lbs, not
> to mention something like a 100lb+ tuna, would
> certainly put a lot more tension on those wraps. I
> am certainly not disagreeing with anyone, just
> trying to keep the fire stocked. Anyone got more
> wood?


It's never been proven to be a problem and the wraps almost certainly receive less stress in that direction (bottom of rod) than in trying to contain a guide located on top of the rod which is attempting, under great load on larger fish, to twist around to the bottom of of the rod.

..............

Mine does not even come close to rubbing the blank at any point

Ron Weber



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2016 05:44PM by Ron Weber.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
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> I have never seen a rod with spiral wrapped micro
> guides. How do you prevent the line from rubbing
> against the blank when it bends?


Phil,

If the guides are located on the underside of the rod, they can't rub the blank. The line is pulling away from the blank, not towards it.

.............

I love it TOM how simple can it be LOL LOL

Bill - willierods.com

With all due respect, I am quite certain Phil was referring to the transition guides of a spiral wrap, whether it (they) be 90 or at 60 & 120 degrees from the 0 – 180 degree axis.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I am not familiar with building or using spiral wrapped rods. I thought the guides started on one side of the blank and wound around to the other. In my mind's eye I imagined the line might come in contact with the blank as the line wound around it, especially if the blank were deeply bent and the guides were very small. Apparently my imagination is at fault. I look forward to watching a spiral wrap rod performing on a big tuna or grouper.