I may be guilty of over thinking again (still), but would prefer to not experience failures with my under-overwraps. Does CP restrict epoxy penetration of the thread, especially if underwrapped? Would it be better to apply thread finish to the underwrap prior to the finish, overwrap?
Any and all comments, other than regarding my habitual over thinking, will be graciously accepted and appreciated.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Yes

The epoxy doesn't need to penetrate the thread. It only has to encapsulate it. There are some that prefer not to use CP insisting that it creates a stronger wrap, which it does, but wraps coated with CP are not in any way inherently weak. Chose whichever route you want to go. Either will work.

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Thanks, Roger. That is the shortest, yet encompassing of your replies I’ve seen.
Thanks also, Tom. My question should have been stated; does the epoxy finish penetrate the overwrap well enough to penetrate, or encapsulate, the underwrap if CP has been applied? But then, Roger has answered that.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Encapsulation does not require penetration, only adhesion.
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Encapsulation does not even require adhesion, which is why the insulating sleeve of electrical wire can be easily stripped from its copper conductors inside. I deal with structural epoxy’s inability to penetrate or be absorbed by Aramid fabrics (encapsulation only) on a daily basis, and most nylons are similar. The issue here is will the epoxy finish wick through (penetrate) the CP impregnated nylon overwrap thread wraps to sufficiently to wet-out, encapsulate, cover, seal, bond, affix, secure, stick, penetration excluded, the underlying thread underwraps? Hence, possibly, Roger’s one word answer when asked inversely.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Daaaang, this just got scientific.

Mark in my experience epoxy finish does not penetrate CP coated wraps. Usually not a problem. in fact it makes it easier later on if you want to replace guides, the finish just peels off making it easier to clean up the blank. However, I have also found that wraps that have been CPed tend to show cracks and crazing more often than warps finished with just epoxy. I usually do not use CP on guide wraps, I like the darker more translucent effect one gets with just the epoxy.
Norm

Thank you for replying, Norman and Randy. My original intent did not include the need to be “scientific”. I have read other posts similar to Norman’s and have experienced the ease of peeling some wraps from a blank, probably due to the use of CP. I was unaware of possible cracking or crazing down the road though so thanks, Norman. This was my first use of CP as the color of the thread got way too dark without it. I just hope enough epoxy made its way down to the underwraps to sufficiently hold everything together. In the future, if using CP, I will certainly put a coat of epoxy on the underwraps prior to wrapping the overwrap.
Norman, if you are still with me, what about NCP thread? Does it act similar to regular thread or more like thread treated with CP? And, to additionally expose my ignorance, what is NCP an abbreviation for? When I started wrapping, I assumed it stood for “No Color Preserver” but obviously the inverse is the case. As far as I’m concerned, it should be “NCPR” for”… Required”.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark, you are correct NCP means no color preserver is need to maintain the original color. Fuji uses 'NOCP', Prowrap uses 'color fast', Makol uses 'perma color' , Fish Hawk uses 'color lok', PacBay and Guidebrod use NCP. Basically they are all the same thing. From what I understand the 'NCP threads' are treated with a chalk like substance to make them color fast and this supposedly also prevents the finish from penetrating the thread. It seems to me that the 'NCP' threads does allow some finish to penetrate, have not had the same peeling cracking problems as when using CP. However, I use NCP thread mainly for trim wraps. NCP threads have a flat look about them, they do not have the same sparkle as regular thread, but they do maintain their color quite well. Metallic threads do not need CP, they maintain their color very well and do appear to be penetrated by the finish since it is sometimes very difficult to remove their metallic sheen from a blank when replacing guides. I do agree with Tom that penetration does not make wraps much stronger, the epoxy is there to protect the wrap. Others may chime in on this, if I am wrong.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2016 06:42PM by Norman Miller.

I am flattered, if not pleasantly surprised, so many of you veterans take the time to assist newbies like me. This time it is Norman and thanks so much! While you have responded and assisted to other of my posts prior to this, and many from different people as well, allow me to confirm my appreciation. Your knowledge, experience and willingness to share that accumulation is overwhelming and appreciated!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I would suspect your everyday work gives you all the answers you need. In general a properly wetted out "fabric" will become translucent.

One school will hold that the thread provides all the required strength and the epoxy merely protects the thread. All that is required is to encapsulate the thread to prevent water intrusion and give it physical protection.

Another school holds that a wetted out thread must be stronger and stronger is better (even if not required). Of course one must plan for that translucent problem. Black thread solves that nicely:)

Part of me thinks all of this conversation overlooks the real problem. Anyone will experience in the area knows that coatings will become compromised and elements will attack the underlying "core" eventually. Perhaps we should be looking more at guides "and means of securing them" that won't becomes "too" damaged if/when the elements attack them due to coating wear/failure?

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russell, Not sure about your position. I have never heard that a wetted thread is stronger. What's the premise? Also are you saying that the epoxy will attack the the tread? If the wraps are properly done with the warp fully encapsulated, how do the "elements" attack them?

If the wrap epoxy is compromised it's builder error. Poorly filled guide feet under the wraps can cause failure. Single foot guides on a heavy duty rod can fracture the epoxy when overloaded. I've seen these problems but all can be avoided by the builder. I've never seen a wrap come loose under the epoxy but I'd have to say is builders error.
Before you apply epoxy use perma gloss. Put two coats on the wraps and it will seal the thread, enhance color, and create a better thread bond. Then apply epoxy.

Russell, Phil and Michael, thank you for responding.
Graduating from either of the schools Russell mentioned would afford the same diploma.
Phil, a single wet-out thread may not be noticeably stronger but an entire structure, the wrap, will certainly be.
Many people are unaware of the mechanics and actually what makes a fiber reinforced plastic (FRP) composite work so well. Thread wraps are included here and, effectively, are very similar.
Any raw fabric, be it fiberglass, carbon fiber, aramid (Kevlar), nylon, cotton are limp, pliable and easy to bend simply because the fibers are allowed to move. But they are also rather strong in tension as in rope. While most plastics may be more difficult to bend they exhibit limited tensile strength especially in very thin pieces. With added tensile strength comes brittleness.
A composite structure utilizes an epoxy matrix to encapsulate fabric fibers and lock them into position. Depending on which fabric or combination thereof, the end result is a structure which is strong, rigid and/or abrasion resistant but all are very light weight. Any applied force focused anywhere on the structure is transmitted, distributed and absorbed throughout the entire structure via the continuous fibers. By themselves, neither the fiber (thread) nor the plastic (epoxy finish) perform that well. A guide could be wrapped with no finish and would be held in place on the rod rather firmly… at first. But rod flex, guide torque, bumps and bangs can compromise the fibers of the thread, concentrated at the point the force is applied. Epoxy finish could be used to secure guide to a rod but the same forces above would eventually break the bond. The combination of both, produce a method of mounting guides to a rod that is unsurpassable, at least at the practical level. As Michael mentioned, most failures would have be due to builder error. And then back to CP. CP is a builder’s choice, and this builder is going to avoid using it whenever possible( while enjoying stripping wraps from a rod where someone else did)!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.