It was recently suggested to me, to build this next rod with 14 guides, rather than 11, for a 10' 4wt rod. I was told that the line will move more freely in and out of the guides. (better casting) I trust the source. Any thoughts on this?

Another consideration is weight, as I mentioned in a different thread, this rod is big, and will be somewhat tip heavy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2016 01:51PM by Chris Harban.

I remember a while back there was a big discussion of Fox Statler's argument that fly rods did not have enough guides. He advocated having as many as 17 guides on a 9 ft rod. Basically he indicated that the further the guides were apart, the more belly developed between the guides which caused the line to have more friction though guides. I tried it and it didn't really increase my distance that much. Maybe that was my casting style which is more aggressive than most. Any time you add guides, you are adding weight to the rod, particularly toward the tip. So it is a tradeoff. I prefer about 11 guides on a 10' rod. I don't know if 3 extra guides would really have a great effect one way or the other, but I not a fan of buying a wrapping extra guides.

Chris,
Rather than increasing the number of guides, try decreasing the number of guides.

Tie on 7 guides and do some casting and see what you think. Don't put final finish on the guides, just tie them on and test cast.

You may find that this could be the direction that you want to go. There is potential line drag for each guide that is on the rod. With no guide, no drag.

I also agree with Bob's comments on the type fisherman and type caster you are. Your casting style could potentially make a difference on your results.

The only way that you will know for sure for your rod and yourself, is to vary the number of guides to find out what works best for you.

For sure, you need a guide in the middle of the rod and you need one on the tip. How many more than the one guide and the tip top is up to you.

Be safe

One of my casting rods has a much greater than usual number of guides, and they are all micro sized. It casts like a rocket.

Roger, your logic only holds true if the line doesn't change its path through the guides, and I think the argument for more guides is that the path will in fact change with fewer guides and getting the path back in line for the next guide takes more friction than normal for passing through one guide. . As usual, not a hard thing to test, as you suggest.

I also have a casting rod built as Chris mentions, and it too casts like a rocket.

I expect that the stiffness of the fly line will affect the results, too. A stiffer line may do fine with fewer guides, and a limp lime may need more guides.

Conventional wisdom is 1 guide per foot and fraction thereof plus 1. So, the starting point for a 10' rod would be 10 + 1 = 11 guides excluding the tip top.

Some hold fewer, larger guides are the way to go while others advocate for more and smaller guides. Unfortunately, there are so many variables (line weight and construction, casting competence, snakes vs. single foot rings, etc.) that this is essentially a subjective decision with pitiful little quantitative data available.

I'd start with 11 guides taped on and then let casting feedback and repetitive static load testing determine how many additional or fewer guides perform best.

Granger was famous (infamous?) for using a minimum number of guides on his blue collar rods which still cast well.

Got to suspect there might well be multiple combinations of guide numbers and sizes that will work. Your job is to figure out what works best for you and your rod.

The additional weight of more guides usually offsets any straighter line path produced by those guides. Performance is generally increased with fewer guides due to the increased rod speed afforded by less weight.

But as mentioned, this is often specific to the line type, stiffer versus more supple. Tape up a set and spend some time casting it. Then add, or remove guides as suggested and try it that way. You'll soon know which works best for you, your line and what you do with that rod.

.................

Chris,
11 guides would be the norm for a rod that length and the conservative choice.
10 guides will increase the rod response and make for easier more enjoyable fishing and casting.
Use light wire titanium single foots in the upper 1/3 of the rod length. This decreases swing weight and increases feel of the rod tip.
A 4 weight is generally used for small flies, long leaders and light tippet. The emphasis should be for a light rod enabling a long day with many casts.

Excellent blank choice.

Gene

This is all good... thank you..


This is a weird blank. At first I thought that I did not like it, that it was a mistake. I wanted a longer rod for lightweight flies. As I mentioned, this blank feels like an 8wt, except for it's action. It is massive 0.390" at the butt, and maybe it is lightweight for it's size. I was told by someone at Winston, that this rod likes a heavier line, like maybe a 4wt Rio Grand, or a 5wt line. I think that it will be a very sensitive rod, as it has what feels like a great action. Can't wait to cast it. It will be fishing next weekend.

Chris,
In general Winston's cast true to weight, within 1 rated line weight.
The Rio grand is a half weight heavy as is the SA GPX taper.
If you are waggling a bare blank add the tip top. The change in rod speed will be very noticeable. As guides are added the blank will slow more.
For a 10 foot 4 weight rod a .390 butt is not out of line.
Cast the rod with a variety of line weights to find the one that fit's your stroke "sweet spot".
Winston is my favorite blank. I generally under-line all my rods 1 line weight as I like the feel of a quick rod. That's just my preferred stroke.

Gene

The casting issue with number of guides on a fly rod is only important if you will be "shooting" a lot of line. Otherwise the line is already out of the rod and the number of guides is moot.

Large diameter butts give you a stiffer rod without adding weight, I have two 5 wt. rods with a butt diameter of .5 inches virtually the same diameter as a 9 wt. from the same company.

Keep in mind that more friction is created by every guide a line passes through. Most fly casters would profit a great deal more by developing a flat casting stroke/tight loop and a good double haul than by fussing with equipment.