Hello all, new to this forum, and looking for some help. Last year I started putting some Hwd's into my handles along with cork, I glued the rings (Wood / Cork Combinations) using 5 min loctite epoxy like I have done with most all of my cork handles and then clamped the cork/wood with a wooden block all thread clamp. Several of the wood to wood glue bonds have failed on the first rod I built, while the wood to cork and cork to cork bonds remain intact. The rod has been used predominately in the Salt Water in the Gulf Coast of Florida, probably left in the hot car several times (The glue is rated for 120F). loctite makes a marine grade epoxy (150F rating), which tell's me this glue is not meant to be submerged in the saltwater. Looking to see if someone has had & solved this problem before, will likely try different glue, U-40 or something meant for rod building, but I have built many rod's with the 5 min epoxy and never had an issue till now. Also have built 5 other rod's with this wood/cork/glue combo since.

Look forward to hearing the thoughts of others,

Thanks,

Darrell

The type of wood can have something to do with it. The Rosewoods and similar have quite a bit of oil in them which can cause a poor adhesive bond. What type wood are you using?

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Darrell,
There are only a couple of thoughts that I might have.

Did you do a perfect ratio selection of parts a and b of your epoxy. Did you do an excellent mix of parts a and B?

The other thing that could possibly be part of your issue is that you may have made your clamps so tight that you squeezed the bulk of the glue out of the joint, leaving little left in the joint for adhesion.

If you have had glue joints both before and after this incident, I might suspect the improper ratio of glue parts or possibly a slightly incomplete mixing of the glue itself.

Be safe

Darrell,
There are only a couple of thoughts that I might have.

Did you do a perfect ratio selection of parts a and b of your epoxy. Did you do an excellent mix of parts a and B?

The other thing that could possibly be part of your issue is that you may have made your clamps so tight that you squeezed the bulk of the glue out of the joint, leaving little left in the joint for adhesion.

If you have had glue joints both before and after this incident, I might suspect the improper ratio of glue parts or possibly a slightly incomplete mixing of the glue itself.

Be safe

Darrell

Thoughts in no special order.

If you were using the 5 minute loctite sold in syringes that mixes the resin and hardener as they are dispensed, odds are good you did get a good epoxy mix else there might have been other failures in the grip. Most rod adhesives, such as U-40's or ProKote's, are relatively forgiving of modest measuring errors and do not require extensive mixing. I've no idea about 5 minute Loctite.

Heat could be a problem, and the temperature in a car parked in the sun in FL during the summer can quickly exceed 120 degrees. So heat is a definite maybe.

Some woods just do not play pretty with glues, adhesives or finishes for that matter. What hardwood did you use? Did you apply a finish, what finish did you use, and how is the finish holding up?

I'll wager that Roger W's suggestion of a "starved joint" is a more probable culprit. Wood doesn't compress to the extent cork will so you got to suspect a starved joint given the wood to wood failure.

Really doubt it was the salt.

Thanks for the responses,

The handle was played out as follows with wood & Cork Rings & spacers - Wenge ring, Leopard wood ring, Gaboon Ebony Spacer, Tulipwood ring, Gaboon Ebony Spacer, Zebrawood Ring, Gaboon Ebony Spacer - 6 rings rubberized cork then same pattern out.

The Glue failed as follows:
Wenge (failed) Leopard wood (failed) Gaboon Spacer (Failed) Tulipwood (Failed) Gaboon Ebony spacer (Intact), Zebrawood (Intact) Ebony spacer (Intact) six rings of Cork (all intact) same failure pattern on the way out. It didn't just separate from the other pieces, it spun on the blank (Wrapped with masking tape) as well.

I finished taking the handle apart tonight hitting the rest of the still intact wood/cork with a blow dryer, it didn't seem to take much effort to free up the bonds.

As for the mixing, I have think I have been pretty good with the epoxy as it comes in measured syringes and I keep the left over to check when it hardens.

I thought about squeezing the clamps to hard as well, but doesn't really explain why the epoxy didn't stay glued to the blank, Im usually put an overly excess amount on the rings.

When I finished the handles, I have been coating with several coats of Daly's Marine Grade Teak Oil..

Appreciate the comments,

right now I think I will do some research into the kinds of wood I'm using and see if I can dig up any info on their effects on Glue.....

Thanks,

Darrell

When you prepare wood rings, you want to make sure the mating surfaces are freshly cut. If not, run them across some medium grit sandpaper. Wood tends to "seal" itself over. Oily, resinous woods should also be wiped with denatured alcohol or acetone to remove as much of the resin as possible.

I tend to stay away from epoxy when gluing wood to wood, preferring instead either a carpenter's glue like Titebond III or a urethane like Gorilla Glue.

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I suspect it is likely the choice of adhesive. I build lots of fly rod grips using many of the same woods mentioned and to my knowledge have never had a parting at the seams. I use only Titebond lll on wood and cork, epoxy on rubber and other no organic materials. The failure on the blank adhesion also makes me suspect the epoxy.

Tom's comments on wood prep are right on, especially for oily or high resin woods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2016 01:32PM by Phil Erickson.

Thank's all,

Found a nice website called "The Wood Data Base" on the web that gave some insight into which wood's have issues with gluing and might have trouble if not prepped properly,
Going forward Ill be making sure surface prep is part of the process as well as getting away from the 5 min epoxy and moving over to a wood glue, Title-bond III.

This has been a big help, Thanks again,

Darrell