I'm setting up a 9' spinning rod on a Pac Bay T2SP1085-2 and I'm having trouble with the reduction train. I measured the spool diameter and multiplied by 27. Choker is placed 62.75" away from top of line spool. I ran a straight line from the choker to the spindle on the reel. From the butt end I started with a 40 then 30, 20, 12 and choker is size 7 ring.

The 12, 20 and 30 all line right up with the spindle and choker, the straight line runs right along the outside of the guides. The spacing from the choker is 6.5" for the size 12, 8.75" from the size 12 to the 20, 12.25" from the 20 to the 30, 13" from the size 30 to 40 and from the 40 it's 21" to the top of the reel spool. My problem is the size 40 isn't tall enough to reach the straight line (5MM short), I'd have to move it up to within 6 inches of the size 30 to get it to line up. I've tried deleting the 40 but then I'm over 30" away from the spool. The height of the size 40 is 62mm, it's a pac bay TV guide, I'm having trouble finding guides up to that height. Initially I wanted to go with a 30 for the butt guide but even high frame guides weren't high enough so I went with the TV in size 40. I'm not sure exactly why I'm having this problem, I think it might be because I'm running a slightly oversized reel (Diawa Emcast 4500 B&R) and I didn't make the handle super long, 22" overall, with the reel stem sitting at about 15" from the butt. Maybe if I had the reel seat up higher on the rod I wouldn't be running into this problem. Can't say for sure though, any ideas?


The other possibility is to move the 40 up so it hits the straight line take out the 30 and add a 25 in it's place, remove the 20 and 12 and replace with a 16. Here's what the spacing looks like with this setup. Choker to size 16 is 9.5", from 16 to 25 is 12.25", from 25 to 40 is 12.25" and from 40 to top of reel spool is 27.25". Maybe this will work?

I guess my question is on the first set up with the 4 reduction guides do you think it will take a lot away from performance having the butt/stripper guide 5 mm or so too low? And on the second set up 27.25" is a bit further from the reel than what I understand is ideal, is this a big performance sapper? Which would be the better way to go?

Thanks in advance.

Jeremiah

Jer,
Go ahead and use a 30 16 and 12 with 7 runners to the tip.

Start with the 30 at 28 inche from the face of the reel, and then go on from there. It will all work out very well. You don't need the extra guides. Put the 16 about 14 inches from the 30 and then you can just reduce from there.

Put a reel on the rod with the guides taped in place and tweak any of the adjustments, but I think that this arrangement will be quite close to what you need.

Often when a stripper guide seems to small - just move it several inches on down the rod and it will likely work just fine.

Be safe

Roger,
So I shouldn't worry too much about the guides lining up with the center of the reel spool and the choker guide? Just trying to get them placed where I'm going to see the best performance. Gonna be fishing from shore a lot with this rod so I'd like it to cast really well. I've read up quite a bit on the new guide concept and the 27x method. With the placement you've suggested the guides aren't even close to lining up with the choker and the spindle for the line spool. They would either need to be slid toward the tip so they would intersect with the straight line from the choker to the spindle, or I would need to swap out the guides for taller ones. Or is this not really all that important? According to what I've read it seems pretty important..

I taped them on using your suggestions and it doesn't look bad. Under static load there does seem to be a lot of pressure being exerted on the size 12 guide. I haven't tried casting it yet, should I?

Check here - [www.rodbuilding.org] - There is a lot of info on placing guides and how to size the butt gut guide
You may and should try several size guides as the butt guide to see if you get better casting distance

Bill - willierods.com

What size line are you going to be running? Mono? Braid?

With that information I can probably dial you in.

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Thanks Bill, I have read all that stuff and have tried to implement it all but have run into problems with guides not being tall enough or having to move them an excessive distance from the reel.

Tom I'll be primarily running 10# mono, maybe up to 12 but probably not any bigger than that.

Do you guys get what I mean when I say the line between the choker and the spindle? It is explained in rodmakers magazine special edition on guide placement. It's suggested to run a straight line from the spindle to the choker and then set your reduction guides along this line, so the outer edge of the guide touches the line from choker to spindle. Is this line critical to performance or can I be under it a bit and still get good performance?

I have already bought a set of guides. Pac bay Single foot V frame in black with SiC ring. I have a size 30, 20, 16, 12, 10, 8 and 6 size 7's. I also have Pac Bay double foot TV guides in size 40 and 25, same color and ring. You'd think I could get a reduction train that followed the preferred line but it's proving to be challenging. The best positioning along this line I found so far is this.

size 40 at 27" from top of spool
size 25 at 14.75" from size 40 guide
size 16 at 11.5" from size 25 guide
size 7 choker at 8.5" from size 16 guide

from there I have 5 more size 7 guides spaced evenly to the tip. All the reduction guides with this set up run perfectly along a straight line from the choker to the spindle on the reel. The only thing I don't care for in this set up is the size of the guides, maybe a 16 being reduced into a 7 isn't a good idea. If I reduce the size of the guides it will increase their distance away from the reel if I try to keep them on this line. Does anyone get what I'm saying? And does the set up I described above sound okay?

Is it critical? Sort of, but keep in mind that fishing line is flexible and will move a bit without too much upset in the guide set up. The main thing is to have a straight set up from the butt guide on. Because you're using such a large reel you either have to get a higher butt guide or set what you have so that the straight alignment line will have to sweep upwards just a tad between the reel and the butt guide.

Use the 30. Keep the choker guide where it is. Set the 30 about 21 to 23 inches past the face of the reel spool. Now reset the the alignment line from the spool to the choker, from the butt guide (#30) to the choker guide and reset all the guides in-between. The number and placement of the running guides won't change. That's all you have to do. Test cast and move the 30 a little in and a little out and see if things get better or worse, lock it down at the point of best performance and the reset the transition guides between there and the choker as needed.

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Thanks Tom that was exactly what I needed to hear. That the straight line was most important not so much where it is in relation to the spool. I think it's really making sense to me now. I guess some test casting is in order.

Thank again to everyone who offered their expertise.

It is important related to the spool, but in some instances such as yours, there is little else you can do. So you make the adjustment at the point where it will matter less.

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Everyone is giving you some good advice for what you are working with. However I think that some of the problems you are having pertains to the frame style of your guides. For example, if you are using Pac Bay V style guides be aware that they are not as tall as fuji Y or KL-H guides, or Pac Bay M or ZV guides. The NGC , the 27x, and the KR guide placement systems are all based on using higher framed guides. You stated that your size 40 TV guide was 62 mm high, for comparison a size 30 Y or 30 ZV is 61 mm, a 25 KL-H is 56 mm, and 25 M is 55 mm. Both the size 20 KL-H and M guides are as high as a size 30 V guide. If its not to late try the higher framed guides, or try them on your next spin rod build. Hope this helps.
Norm

Norman your exactly right I ordered the guides when I ordered the blank. I should have waited so I could get the handle and reel squared away. Then I could have found the proper alignment line and shopped for guides based upon my needs there. Definitely learned a lesson here, to wait until I get the blank and the handle built before I order guides. I almost broke down and ordered some of the Fuji high frame guides after I encountered the low guide problem but I don't really want to spend the money since I already bought a bunch of guides. I think I can make it work with what I have. If I buy the high frame fuji now I don't really gain anything except for less weight, the 30 Y would essentially get placed right about where the size 40 is placed as they are roughly the same height.

It's been a long time since I've built a rod, 2008 I think, I don't remember all this new guide concept back then. I do like the concept though, it is quick and easy once understood.

Went out and did some test casting. Since I already had the size 40, 25 and 16 taped on I tested this first. It was really smooth, cast a long ways, accurate, and very little noise from the mono. I was really happy with the way it cast. Then I went to Tom's suggestion and placed the size 30 22" from spool. From there I started placing the transition guides along the line from the choker to the size 30 butt guide. I place a size 20 15.5" from the size 30 and a size 12 12.5" up from the 20. From the size 12 it's about 9" to the choker. Right off I noticed more line noise when casting, distance and accuracy didn't seem bad though. There did seem to be a slight loss in performance from the size 40 setup. I assume because the size 40 setup is perfectly in line with the spool spindle and the size 30 isn't. From there I tried moving the 30 toward the reel and the line noise seemed to get worse, again I assume because it made the angle from the spool to the butt guide greater. So I moved the 30 to 25 inches from the spool and there was improvement. Still it didn't seem as smooth as the size 40 set up.

I really think that with the guides I have on hand that my best bet is to use the size 40 placed 27 in from the spool. That puts it in perfect alignment with the spool and choker and seems to give me the best performance. Is there a reason besides the little bit of extra weight why I shouldn't do this? If there is I may have to break down and get a few of the high frame guides so I can get better alignment. I wasn't really impressed with the way it casts with the 30 set at 22" from spool, a higher guide would definitely help.

Static testing didn't look much different between the two different set ups.

Thanks again everyone.

Sounds like you have it figured out, so go with it. The extra weight of the 40 is located in a part of the rod where is will have minimal effect on performance. Also since you are using mono on a large diameter reel the larger stripper guide is OK. If you were using braid you could use a smaller stripper and could also use a smaller and lighter reel like a 2500 or 3000. One of the reasons I like braid is that it allows you to go with a lighter guide train and a lighter reel. In addition, it cast further and smoother than mono and is more sensitive. Hope this helps.
Norm

Don't worry about how it sounds - worry about where the lure/plug lands. If you want the quietest set-up, just remove all the guides. The less control you do with guides, the quieter it'll get.

The only downside to the large 40 ring and such light line, and with the guide that far from the spool, is that you may get line slap or wrap when retrieving with no tension on the line. So make sure to try retrieving across a smooth surface so you can see how things act in that direction as well.

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Thanks for the reply Norman. Yeah I think I've got it figured out, mostly thanks to this forum and the regular posters here. You guys are appreciated more than you know. A big thanks. I'm gonna be super happy with this rod.

I'll be primarily using it on Lake Michigan. There's a lot of access around me that's fish able, some really big fish too. Steelhead run in the river in the spring. Smallmouth come in shortly after followed by massive carp that hang around all summer. And there's the salmon run in the fall. This rod should excel in targeting all these species. The reason for the oversized reel is because sometimes it's beneficial to paddle the line out a ways, or just wade out and cast so I can get closer to the drop off . I need the line capacity, a regular 2500 doesn't hold much 10# line.

I have tried braids in the past and I've had a couple bad experiences with them. Sometimes I end up fishing near crowds and it never fails that someone will cast over your line and get it tangled. Ever try to get knots out of braid, it's not too fun. My wife once broke a tip off a rod using braid, line must have been wrapped around the tip, I've had the same thing happen with mono but it snapped the line not the rod. Then there's the couple times that it's been below freezing and the braid didn't hold up too well, froze up pretty stiff. Plus mono is cheap. I admit though it's been quite a while since I've tried any braids, I understand they've gotten better over the years.

Jeremiah