Hello,

I fish in local Florida bass tourneys as a co-angler. As a result I do almost no actual flipping, as flipping is so quick and thorough, that the boater pretty much positions the boat and can hit all the spots. What I do is pitch. But it also frequently punching, I.e. Creating your own holes so as to fish water not touched by the boater (and likely few others as well).

My question is in regards to action:

Normally I believe a flip stick should be mod in action. I believe this is due to A) a green fish hooked close to the boat, and B) keeping a fish hooked when caught in a pile of weeds.

Many say a pitching rod would be ideally more of a fast action.

Most folks actually use their flipping rod to pitch as they come upon targets too far to flip to.

Similarly, punching is done mostly with flipping sticks, thus are often mod action.

I am looking at a shorter rod, like 6' 6" to 6' 8", for ease of pitching and the added power needed to retrieve a fish a little further than normal punching.

What I am trying to wrap my head around is assuming appropriate for lure weight, should I look for 1) a fast rod in that length, 2) a heavier rated blank than needed, and longer in fast action, knowing it will become slower when I shorten it, or 3) a normal flipping rod in mod, that will likely become slow when trimmed?

If needed it would be 3/4-2 ounce weights with 65# braid.

Thanks,

Craig



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2015 09:35PM by Craig Clements.

Personally I think that a fast action rod is better for both flipping and punching, simply because more hook set energy is transferred to the fish, versus being absorbed by the rod. I don't do a lot of punching, but I do, do a lot of flipping. When I set the hook, I'm just as concerned with moving the fish as I am with getting good hook penetration. It's been my experience that when fishing heavy cover, if you don't move the fish on the hook set, your chances of landing it are greatly reduced.

To me, a fast action rod is better at moving fish.

Braided line changes that to some degree because one ... no stretch braided line transfers more hook set energy to the fish,so it will move the fish, but it also will go slack more quickly unless there is more bend in the rod to offset it. Especially as you mentioned, when a fish is hooked close to the boat on a short line. So a slower action would be beneficial.

Pitching is definitely easier with a fast or better yet, an extra fast action rod. And while it may seem that a shorter rod would make pitching easier, and it does if you're having to deal with low obstructions that are close to the boat, a long rod makes pitching easier. Especially if you're pitching distances of 25' or more.

IMO the thing to consider when choosing rod length is how close you'll be to your targets the majority of the time. A shorter rod applies more pressure to the fish, but it also shallows the angle of your line, to the fish. It also means you're not going to be moving as much line on a hook set.

If you're going to be close the majority of the time, or up tight to overhanging objects, a shorter rod won't hurt you as much, and may be a better choice. But if you're making long pitches or longer flips which as a co-angler, is something that may be more the norm, then a longer rod is definitely going to be to your advantage.

Decisions, decisions ...... either way, I personally would go with at least a 7' rod. It's a good compromise between distance, and maneuverability.

And a tip that has put more than a few fish in the boat for me ...... just because you're fishing behind someone that is seemingly picking every piece of cover apart in front of you, doesn't mean you can't catch fish behind them by throwing into the exact same spots that they just did. I'm sure there have been many times when you've been out fishing alone and not gotten a bite from a piece of cover until the 4th, 5th, or even 10th cast to a piece of cover.

Don't not throw to a good looking spot just because the guy in the boat in front of you didn't get a hit.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2015 10:39AM by David Baylor.

I did a search on the action for flipping rods when punching and found this. Steve fishes a lot of tournaments and builds a lot of rods. I usually follow his advice when it comes to building rods for bass fishing.
Posted by: Steve Gardner (---.nc.res.rr.com)
Date: July 18, 2013 07:36AM

you will land more of the fish you move out of the slop with the moderate
[rodbuilding.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2015 10:11AM by Roger Rierson.

Just my 2cents but I fish as a co-angler and for my flipping/pitching rod I built it on a 7'11" XH ModF Swimbait rod rated for 4 oz. that I cut down to 7'7" and love it. The Moderate is the way to go for me. More forgiving plus the backbone to move the fish. Now I'm not sure about the length because for me I want at least a 7' rod simply for leverage on the fish also for longer pitches. Don't know if this helped but just My Opinion.
Tight Lines, Good luck and God bless

Craig;
I agree with most of what David said except blank action and a little longer length.

Something to consider when pitching of flipping, is length of line from reel through tip to hand. If you compared 7' rod to a 7' 6" rod with handles of same length. The 7'6" is going to provide approximately 6" more line from reel to tip. Plus 6" more line from tip to hand.

So right out of the gate you're allowing yourself and extra foot of line to flip with.

Or an extra foot of less effort required to reach your target when pitching.
In pitching that equates over the course of the day. To a lot less expended energy meaning; a less tired more focused angler. and more accurate pitches both because of less fatigue, and more controlled pitches because of the less energy required to reach target

So my suggestion would be a Mod to Mod-fast blank of at least 7'6". If you read the link Roger posted you will understand Some more of the reasons why.

If you are going the the ICRBE this year?
I will be presenting a seminar which will cover this subject in more detail in hopes of helping builders understanding how to better serve the clientele.
The seminar will pretty much be on "Understanding blank characteristics and which actions are better suited for particular techniques.

I will also be demonstrating a technique of getting an additional 2"+ of line length out when flipping. That will allow you or anyone to out distance the angler in the front of the boat or back depending on which end you flipping from

Craig, as always Steve is spot on with his advice. A longer rod is going to be better for flipping, pitching, and punching. Particularly in the case of punching.

In my earlier post I mentioned that a shorter rod would cause a more shallow line angle from tip of the rod to the water's surface. That's going to hinder both your presentation and your hook set more when punching, than it would if you were flipping and pitching into or along heavy cover edges. When punching, the steeper the angle of the line as it enters the water, the better. The steeper angle allows your bait to penetrate the cover easier. It reduces cover to line friction which allows your bait to fall more freely. And ... when you set the hook, you're lifting the fish up and out of cover, versus pulling the fish more horizontally, into cover.

Plus, you're moving more line on a hook set which means you're moving the fish further than you would be with a shorter rod. Longer is definitely better with vertical presentations.

The only time I would recommend a shorter rod for any of the talked about presentations is when physical obstructions make the use of a longer rod impractical, or dangerous for the rod. When I say dangerous for the rod, I mean when fishing under and among over hanging trees where a longer rod may hit a branch on a hook set. High rod tip speed and impact with a hard object is a recipe for a shattered rod.

Lastly, my choice or recommendation of rod action much as I suspect Steve's is, is tied to line type. I use fluorocarbon line for flipping and pitching all but the heaviest cover. Because of fluorocarbon's stretch, I believe that a fast action is preferable. With braided line, and that's what we're talking about here, there is no doubt that the moderate or moderate fast action that Steve recommends is the way to go.

Thanks for all the considered replies!

I must say that my rod building experience is limited, I've drifted into it as a combination of my hobby of lure building, and wanting to start bass fishing in tournaments since I moved down to Florida, and I will defer you you greater experience in both.

I'm contrary by nature, and rather than accept the status quo, I like to understand the "why" of things. Please don't take my statements as argumentative, they are definitely not meant that way.

Chris had said a longer rod gives him more leverage, but the opposite is true as far as lifting power for moving a fish. A 7' rod should give you 12.5% more power than a 8' rod.

I agree a longer rod clearly will take up more slack for a good hook set, but I believe that a shorter rod will set the hook with more power (which can be a bad thing, one of the sea for a more moderate rod when close in with braid, I agree). Also, no less an authority than Gary Klien states that you should never set the hook when flipping until you feel the weight of the fish, so the slack issue may be moot.

A lot of the point are well made, but are relevant more to flipping. I.e. I had not considered David's point about the angle on the fish being better with the longer rod. A good point, and correct, but I think less of a importance on, say, a 30ft pitch, where the distance may reduce the effect to a few degrees.

I agree a more moderate action will help deal with a fish's surges, helping to keep a fish buttoned up but maintaining an even pressure. Many claim that you need a more moderate rod due to something having to "give" with braid and a short line, but this does not make sense to me. I can see needing less power so you don't tear the fish's mouth, or more power so something doesn't break, but if a given rod will deflect with a given load, the deflection angle should not matter much for this purpose.

Steve, you are right of course that when flipping, the longer rod will give you more line. Actually, even more than you state, the extra 6" should give you more like 14" more range.

I question though the statement that a longer rod is less fatiguing when pitching. It is possible at the limits of range, and a longer rod will give more possible distance.

But:

A) a longer rod is more likely a heavier rod, so more work

B) a longer rod is a longer lever arm, so more work for the same distance, I think

C) a longer rod is less efficient in lifting the weight in the underarm cast, so a one ounce flipping weight on a 8' rod would be the same work as a 1 1/8 ounce weight would be on a 7 foot rod. (The 12.5% difference between 7 and 8 ft)


That said, I think you have convinced me to go with a longer, slower rod, lol. It clearly is better in flipping, though I Expect to do little of that. It will keep a hooked fish hooked better. But your kind help has also made me realize that a 7' fast action and a 8' mod action may have the same lifting power when you are looking at a bass plus a bunch of weeds. This would be an side effect of the more moderate rod bending more under load, thus shortening it's effective length to that of the shorter rod.

Thoughts?

And thanks again for the help/discussion, it really has me thinking!

Craig

Craig, I like the way you're thinking. I too want to know the "why's" when I'm not sure about the advice or suggestions I'm given when asking a question. It's how you learn.

As far as the longer rod giving you more leverage on a fish. You're exactly right, it is just the opposite and is actually one of my pet peeves when I see or hear someone saying that. So no, a longer rod doesn't give you more leverage, and it doesn't give you more power.

You mention thinking that a shorter rod will give you a more powerful hook set, but we're talking about slack or semi slack line techniques. With slack line techniques a hook set isn't about power. It's about moving line, and moving it with speed. A longer rod not only moves more line, it moves it at a faster speed. The more line you move, and the faster you move it, the better your chances of getting a good hook set. And since that speed translates into power, it also betters your chance at moving the fish on the hook set.

Is power important on a hook set when fishing heavy cover? Most definitely. But power is more a continuation of the process, than it is a requisite.

You mention believing the moderate action being beneficial when using braided line at close range because of it's potential for making too big of a hole in the fish's mouth on a hook set. And that is definitely a concern, but it isn't the only concern. Nor do I believe it's the most important concern. After all, the hook set may have not been what caused a big hole in the fish's mouth. It's just as likely that pulling the fish out of heavy cover is the cause.

One thing you don't seem to be considering is how quickly braid can go slack. When you have a line that can go slack in the blink of eye, you need a rod with a slower action to keep the line tight. If not, chances are you're going to lose that fish. How many times have you boated a fish only to have the bait fall out of it's mouth once you've done something to release the tension on the line? Lack of line stretch is the main reason that slower action rods are better for keeping fish buttoned up when using braid, regardless of the technique being used.

As far as a shorter rod and the accompanying line angle through its use is concerned. I was referencing it's use for punching. If you're pitching cover edges or into heavy cover where you aren't dependent on having your bait penetrate a weed canopy, the shallower line angle that comes with using a shorter rod isn't going to hurt you much, if at all. I used to do all of my pitching and flipping with 6'6" rods, and still use them. But over the years I've went to 7, and longer rods (haven't went to 7'6" yet because of rod locker length restrictions, and I don't like telescoping rods) and it is MUCH easier pitching and flipping with a longer rod.

As for your calculations trying to determine actual work load of a longer or shorter rod. I'll just say that there are more variables involved than what you're considering. Rather than list them, I'd just suggest you find a buddy with different length rods and try them for yourself. While your calculations may be correct, calculations don't always match perceptions.

A case in point experiment. Take two objects that weigh the same. Pick one up at its balance point, and the other up at a point where it will be unbalanced. Which one is easier to pick up? Which one feels heavier?


Love the conversation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2016 05:20AM by David Baylor.

Awesome discussion, I was in the middle of choosing a pitching rod for myself and my tournament partner, and was curious about the blank actions as well. Never really thought much about Moderate action for this technique, always assumed the faster load the quicker the hook set in the slop and the greater control. But the moderate action makes sense now, in most cases, hook sets are up close an personal and are rarely on slack line. Often or most times hook sets are made when the weight of the fish is felt or the line starts moving. Last season, I had a buddy break two factory XF flipping rods. Kinda makes sense now that I am reading all this.

I myself like a longer pitching rod, especially if your are using the rod for flipping. As stated, the longer the rod, the more line you are working with and less effort in your flip or pitch.

Guys what blanks would be good in the 7-7'6 range for this technique in a moderate, to moderate/fast actions....

I agree, it is an interesting discussion. But what I find most interesting (and please don't take this the wrong way) what I find most interesting is reading about feeling the weight of the fish before the hook is set, or that it happens the majority of the time. If we were talking about top water baits I'd definitely fall in that camp. But we're talking flipping, pitching, and punching.

I'd say rarely .... at least for me .... rarely do I feel the weight of the fish prior to setting the hook. Seeing the line start to move happens far more often, but still, on most days I'd say it happens less than 30% of the time. Before I go further I'll say that I'm primarily talking about flipping and pitching. As I said earlier, I don't do a lot of punching. Mostly because I don't have the proper gear for it, but also because the lakes I normally fish here in northeast Ohio, just don't have a lot of cover that would call for it.

With the type of presentation that punching is, I can understand feeling the weight of the fish as a way of determining if you've gotten a hit, simply because the line's contact with the weed canopy would negate some of the feel of a bite.

With that said, I'd also say that the majority of bites are felt on a (depending on your personal definition) a semi slack line. And the majority of hook sets are on a slack line, at least for me they are. When I feel that little tick, that thump, or if I notice the bait stopped sinking before it should have, I immediately and very quickly drop my rod tip, probably between 18 - 24 inches, to put slack in the line. I reel in, depending on how much I've dropped my rod, maybe a foot or so of line. Never enough to take all the slack out of the line, and never enough to feel the weight of the fish. I then try to cross the fish's eyes.

I'm trying to make the bait jump in the fish's mouth. I'm also trying to move the fish, or at least turn its head with the hook set. I want to surprise the fish and get it coming towards me before it has a chance to figure out (as Margin Gaye would say) what;s going on. I rarely use braid for flipping and pitching. The majority of the time I use fluorocarbon. But if I'm forced to use braid because the situation demands it, I still don't change the way I set the hook. If I'm fishing heavy cover, I'm blasting the fish. Fast and hard. As Jay said, this is up close and personal in heavy cover. Get um hooked and in the boat, or at least clear of the cover if it's a big fish.

I can understand someone breaking a high power, extra fast action rod if they're using heavy braid. Especially if it's a high modulus graphite. A slack line hook set like I just described puts a lot of shock on a rod, and on your line. That shock is the reason we have to use 50, 65, even 80# braid. If you were using 20# braid, you'd (because it doesn't stretch) pop it like it wasn't even there. Braid breaks far more easily than most people realize. On a dead pull it is strong as heck, but when you shock it the way a hook set on heavy tackle shocks it, you'd better be using 30# test or better. Or you're going to break off fish. Maybe not every time, but in a tournament where money is on the line, I wouldn't want to take the chance.

With all of the above said, I'd definitely agree that a heavy power, moderate or moderate fast action rod would be the best choice if you're using heavy braid. As far as blanks to use, I did some looking around and there are plenty of blanks that would fit the bill for that type of rod. And if I ever build that type of rod, I like the suggestion that Chris offered. I bet it works great for what we're talking about.

It's been fun !!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2016 09:12AM by David Baylor.

Agreed with everything you said, I fish some pretty heavy cover up here, mostly in chestnuts and mill foil on Lake Champlain etc... I am rarely fishing on a slack line, I usually pitch to certain places and rarely leave the bait on a slack line, usually pitch hop a couple times and bring it in and repeat. Depending on the cover, I either can see the line tick or move, feel a bite or simply feel the weight. So I guess for me it's really dependent on the situation and cover I am fishing, so . We all fish a little different, which is awesome, cause they all seem to work for each person. I just know myself, I rarely fish matted vegetation on slack line, but that's the beauty of building your own rods, you can build it to your style etc... Great insight David, I am with you!

An yes, the high modulus XF graphite rods that broke were indeed on heavy braided line. Not much of a shock absorbment when using straight braid, no buffer, just hook, line, rod and reel.. Because your fishing in such close quarters, the moderate action can act as that buffer, which I think is the way to go, at least for me. So some guys are using Swimbait rods cut down for this presentation? Never thought of that idea, learn something new here everyday.

So I was considering the following blanks:

North Fork Composite SM-Flip766-1
Castaway BB1

Big price difference between the two, the BB1 being the faster action blank. Any opinions.

Jay, I guess it depends on what your primary use for the rod is going to be.

I think it's pretty clear by my posts that I have no experience with moderate fast, or moderate action rods that would be used for flipping or pitching. I use fluorocarbon line, so that action would not be my choice. One the rare occasions that I use heavy braid for flipping or pitching, I use a fast action, medium heavy power rod, that I believe may be a composite. If it's 100% graphite, then it's a low modulus graphite. It's a heavy rod, weight wise, which is a contributing factor as to why I don't often use braid. If I were to use it an entire day, my forearms would probably be sore. lol

Be that as it may, its lower power allows it to bend further into the blank on a hook set, and its rather thick blank wall thickness (I cut the butt cap off to see what kind of wall thickness it had) evidently makes it very durable. I use it as my frog rod as well. It's the only rod I own that I use braid on. Yeah, because I'm afraid of breaking some of my higher modulus rods, but also because I'm just not a fan of braid. To me, it's great line for fishing frogs and also as a main line for Carolina rigs. Other than that, I go with fluorocarbon, or if I need a line that floats ... either regular nylon, or a co-polymer mono filament line.

With that said, the only rods that I have experience with that have moderate or moderate fast actions, are crankbait rods. 2 of them are medium heavy power, rated for 3/8 - 1 oz lures. I'd never use them for flipping or pitching. They just don't have that kind of power. I can only assume that a blank with a similar power rating but one that is designed for flipping and pitching, has to have a lot more power in the upper half of the blank than a crankbait blank does.

Since I don't know how the blanks you posted the model numbers for behave, I would go even more powerful. If I personally were going to build the type of rod you're looking to build, I'd go with the Castaway blank, but the BB2, instead of the BB1.

Other than that, I don't have much more to offer to this thread.

But I do love talking tackle, and I've surely learned a thing or two from this thread.

I love this place !!!

David, anytime you wanna talk tackle or fishing drop me a line or shoot me an email. Always up for learning something new.

Craig and Jay
Batson's Eternity, immortal blanks are hands down some of my favorite blanks.
But not for all flipping situations, if you are flipping worms or creature type baits with worm weights they are awesome. They are light, crisp, sensitive, and responsive. But are too fast for flipping jigs and and big fat weights in heavy cover and will cost you lost fish.

I spent some time discussing this with Bill Batson and he said that they will be working on a design to fill the requirements for a good flipping blank

But IMO (at present) the only blank company that has a really good understanding of what is needed in flipping blanks, Is North Fork Composites and they have understood the nuances required for good flipping sticks for many years.

If I was going to suggest a blank it would be:
Any of their Flip 764,765,766, or 805 in the (HM) models depending on weights thrown and cover situations.
And for me wouldn't mater if I was using braid or Floro

I would NOT go with the the (SM) composite blank.
As David was saying above about weight, the extra once of the (SM) blanks may not seem like much, but at about 30% more wight -times a thousand to two thousand flips a day kills the arms.
Maybe the (IM) if price is a real concern, but no the (SM)

The BB-1 and BB-2 were good blanks, and a good blank to substitute for flipping/pitching. The BB is actually a "Back Bouncing" blank that has been re-designated for flipping by swampland to fill the gap of what was not available. When the blank was still being built in this country by Castaway I used and recommended them.
But when they started importing them form over seas the consistency in actions got so varied I stopped using them altogether.