Hey guys let me start by saying I am in no way trying to bad mouth a company or product. I love microwaves for my spinning rods, I dont build one without them. However, I have always been confused as to how they are useful for a casting rod. To me, when the line comes from a baitcaster it is a pretty straight shot to the first guide unlike a spinning rod. I just don't see why or how it would be of any advantage. Can someone explain this to me?

Same reason when you go into Mudhole now the only blanks they have out are MHX, and stock of everything else is minimal. Good marketing is good for business evidently.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2015 03:06AM by Dennis Hamilton.

Because people were asking for them. For every builder or fisherman that reaslizes the same thing you did there are two more that do not put any thought into it. They just want the latest and greatest and if you are in business why not give it to them.

I have done several comparative casting tests using matched rods and reels and have seen very little, if any, advantage using the microwave casting guides. The line guide on the casting reel controls the line immediately as it comes off the spool, so the need to control it at the stripper guide is much less as compared to spinning. On the other hand, the microwave spinning guides do offer a very noticeable advantage over the old cone of flight set up, not so much over the new guide concept and very little, if any, over the KR microguide concept (using either KR guides or minima 4 guides). These tests we done as objectively I could do them, I had no bias one way or the other; I just wanted to see for myself which system worked the best. In my opinion the microwave casting guides are more hype than reality.
Norm

I agree - But people buy them cause they are the New Thing - Go Figure

The spinning do work nicely though

Bill - willierods.com

If you look at the videos by Fuji you will find that they state that loops persist past the level wind and guide size& spacing affect casting performance. My last two casting rods were built to their specs & both cast great, No objective data. My son commented on the second one that IIT casted better then his other rods.

The Fuji system has the advantage of many guide quality, size, & finishes, the only special guide being the first.

I am not saying that microwave casting guides do not cast well, they just do not offer an advantage over other well placed and sized guides from other manufacturers, including other American tackle guides.
Norm

Microwave guides were created to tame the loops created by spinning reels, and they work well. Casting reels create no such loops. I think the only advantage they offer is to the person who picks your parts off the shelf. That being said, I am going to use them (air waves) on my next build just as a conversation piece and cause they're cheap. Lynn

Lynn, casting reels make loops, much longer than spin loops. Not the same as spin, but the disturbances before the level wind guide can and do go through not only the reel guide, but at least the first rod guide too. I'm not saying that Microwaves make sense or don't make sense, all I'm saying is that there are loops/disturbances and it is conceivable that guide sizing, design, and placement (along the rod and vertical), can affect the casting performance. I've noticed on my casting rods that not all of them have the same line shape in front of the first guide and between the first and second guides. On some rods the shapes go farther out the rod. On my rods with smaller, some micro guides, the line appears to calm down sooner. I don't use Microwaves on cast outfits, I'm now solidly in the Fuji camp on casting. Fuji considers the height of the first guide and its diameter to be important.

Norman, I'm not disagreeing with you - you have the data on Microwaves. All I'm saying is that to dismiss guide effects because one doesn't think there are big enough "disturbances" on casting outfits is probably shortsighted.

Many early experimenters with micro guides on casting rods maintained that a rod with small micros casted better if the first and second guides were a little bigger than the small micros.

I agree with Norman on the microwave casting guides, as i have seen little to no improvement in casting although I still like them . The spinning is another story. they work well and my customers have responded with additional orders as a testament to their performance.

I have also built Minima 4 and Fuji's KR guides that will cast just as far. However there is one big difference even on the casting rods. It enables a custom rod builder to offer something not found on the shelf of most tackle stores and therefore i feel gives me much more opportunity to capitalize on that trend.

it is amazing still when you show the Microwaves to folks how many don't know what they are and what they will do. Also I think AT is really missing the boat by not slamming their advertising with the success of Arron Martins Angler of the Year, an astonishing achievement !!! , and the fact that he is using only rods with the Microwave guides on them. That alone has helped me sell more rods.

Tom

Michael I am not dismissing the effects that guides have on casting because well placed and properly sized guides make a big difference in rod perfomance. What I am saying is that the microwave casting guides do not offer an advantage when compared to other brands of guides that are well placed and appropriately sized. I know that line coming from a casting reel does show some chaos, but you have to admit that this chaos is a lot less than that seen with a spinning reel.

Norm

The MicroWave casting guides are a perfect hybrid between a traditional guide train and a micro guide train. This gives us the best of both worlds.

A micro or a traditional casting guide train can restrict distance by creating drastic angles from the spool to the first running guide..... Let me explain that further. When the line leaves the spool the line creates a sharp downward trajectory towards the first micro guide (stripper guide) once it leaves the stripper guide another angle is formed to meet the first running guide. During this process, a couple of things can happen.

First - the line leaving the spool rides to high and overcomes the top of the stripper guide causing the line to decrease speed and bunch at the first guide (this may be only for a split second) which will cause increases in backlashing.

Second - decreasing line speed will result in less distance from your casting and increasing energy will only make this matter worse.

The benefits of the microwave casting guides are as follows:

1: While not as noticeable as the spinning guides, the line leaving a casting reel does not (I know I am going to get slammed for saying this), I repeat, it does not come off the spool straight. If you video this process and slow it down you will see that the line comes of the spool in waves, up and down side to side. These waves, just like oscillating line coming off a spinning reel, must be captured and controlled to allow for added distance and increased accuracy by eliminating friction throughout the rest of the guide train.

2: Ring height. Using the microwave stripper guide elevates the smaller ring off the blank allowing for a smooth and straight transition from the spool to the running guides. This elevation eliminates the angles one sees from a micro guide train. By eliminating these angles and capturing the waves leaving the spool we can decrease our chances of backlashing and increase our casting distance by allowing for a straight transition to the rest of the guide train and decreasing the possibility of the line overrunning the stripper guide.

Give it a cast and try for yourself. There has to be a reason why the fishing industry on three different continents voted on it to receive three major industry awards. Marketing can only take you so far, there has to be something there other wise why would so many have voted for it?

_______________________________
God Bless, Don Morse

800-516-1750 ext. 1207 / don@americantackle.us

Rod Building..... It's What We Do.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2015 02:33PM by Don @ American Tackle.

I love micro guides! My may reason is not about about the casting' but increased sensitive. The more weight that is added to a rod, (especially in the tip area), the less sensitive it becomes.

Don Campbell
don@sensorfishingrods.com

Your analysis and interpretation makes sense, Don, and is consistent with Fuji's conclusions. The are also is consistent with what I have observed and what early adopters of micros concluded. Although I don't have video.

But are not all the awards on three continents for spinning Microwaves?

True the spinning Microwaves were demonstrated at all the shows where awards were won including the Innovation of the year to mark the MWG’s as winning more industry wide awards than ANY product in fishing tackle history.

This said, the very same patented technology that manages the line control (and won the awards) is the same for both casting and spinning configurations. It captures and controls oscillating fishing line immediately in the first guide. While line oscillates differently in both styles and contributes additional separate benefits, the same goal of capture, control and extreme efficiency is achieved.

Expert anglers who depend on extreme efficiency for success swear by this system in large part trusting their lively hoods on something that feel strongly gives them an edge. In fact those guys on the water casting absolutely all day long report definite advantages to the casting sets without question. Aaron Martens was mentioned earlier and he is in my opinion one of the most technical anglers there ever was. He uses both casting and spinning and feels so strongly about it that he left Megabass after 17 years to design his own rods(because they wouldn’t use the MWG’s) There are many more pro anglers requesting that their sponsored rod companies use MWG’s as well(or they might jump ship to a brand that does).

It’s the real deal and anglers love it whether builders understand it or not. Hope you guys try them (or continue to use them) and love them just as much

_______________________________
God Bless, Don Morse

800-516-1750 ext. 1207 / don@americantackle.us

Rod Building..... It's What We Do.

Some have said line leaving a casting reel does not come off straight. Others have said that it does come off straight.

What physical evidence is available?
1. What we have individually seen or experienced
2. The Fuji video

Is there anything else available for evaluation?

From the Fuji video we have the following:
Low profile reel
Reel's line guide fixed at center when casting
Sharp bend in line at stripper guide
Erratic line flow

In the past, ABU had a system where the line guide was linked to the reel's handle. If you wanted the guide centered, you turned the handle until the guide was in the desired position and then pulled line off the spool until you had the desired line drop from the rod's tip. You then disengaged the spool and made the cast with the guide staying in its pre-positioned location.

The next generation saw the innovation of the free floating line guide. Pressing the spool release button disconnected the line guide from the system. On the cast, the line guide freely followed the line's position from the reel.

Sometime during these transitions, Penn implemented a twisted bar level wind. It did away with the standard line guide and allowed free movement of the line off the spool. US Reels has a twisted bar style reel.

And finally, the synchronized system was developed. The development of better miniature bearings has provided a viable method of coupling the level wind guide and spool. In this manner, line goes on the spool directly behind the guide and the guide is in front of the line during the cast. There are mods available to enhance the casting capability of level wind reels. This includes ceramic bearings at each end of the worm gear, double bearings in the oscillation cog wheel, and a ceramic pawl.

Honorable mention goes to Daiwa's T-System (TWS)

The following provides a good pictorial and explanation of the problem and demonstrates a twisted bar system.
[www.youtube.com]

How to re sync a synchronized level wind
[www.youtube.com]

An explanation of the Daiwa TWS
[www.daiwa.com]

Back in about 1980, maybe earlier, the butt guide was selected by the reel size. The cross over was based on the JigMaster reel. JigMaster or bigger and a size 30 guide was recommended. If the guide did not allow free flow of the line, the guide was moved slightly farther away from the reel. Those were simpler days.

My opinions:
1. The problem seems to be associated with a type of casting reel.
2. Fix the problem at the source (reel)
3. Both ATC & Fuji seem to have the same approach. The butt guide is moved into the line path (a modified NGC)
4. Use the controls provided on the reel (brakes - centrifugal and/or magnetic)

Don Becker

Don, your approach is 3 out of 4 opinions related to the reel. And I agree with much of that, but your 3 are problems and not solutions. Not considered is the line. I think that the braid solution may not be exactly the same as the mono solution, and the FC solution IMHO may not exist.

I have no problem with the Fuji and Amtak solutions aimed at getting whatever is coming toward their guides through as smoothly as possible accepting many variances in what is coming .

Has anyone really investigated the "no level wind" reel, which has no guide at the reel, and puts the load of controlling and efficiently passing the line through to the guide train?

There are so many variables in this whole issue, even though it's casting and not spinning, that it is mind-boggling. And maybe, the opportunities are very limited (Norman Miller). It may not make a heck of a lot of difference what we do.

Before long we will have "braid reels" and "mono reels" and "FC reels" and maybe even "hybrid reels." Then, "braid reels below 50 pound test", and "mono reels between 12 and 20". . . you get the picture.

Let's just go fishing.

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don, your approach is 3 out of 4 opinions related
> to the reel. And I agree with much of that, but
> your 3 are problems and not solutions. Not
> considered is the line. I think that the braid
> solution may not be exactly the same as the mono
> solution, and the FC solution IMHO may not exist.

Hi Michael,

If the root problem is fixed, there is no need for various guide solutions. The problem is that people expect performance from inexpensive reels.From the US Reel video, we should be able to conclude that the problem is from the line dragging across the spool when the line guide has a fixed position. The reel manufactures indicated arrived at different solutions of which each solved the problem. Do people really use FC for main line. I certainly could not afford it.


> Has anyone really investigated the "no level wind"
> reel, which has no guide at the reel, and puts the
> load of controlling and efficiently passing the
> line through to the guide train?

The non level wind casting reel is the common reel used in distance casting competition. The current record is about 860 feet in the US and over 900 feet in the UK. The open cage reels do not create the issues found with certain styles of level wind reels. In this situation, the guides serve to properly load the rod for the cast. Out of curiosity, I calculated the angle of the line leaving the reel to the rod. The maximum angle (left side of spool to right side of butt guide) was 1.5 (less than 2) degrees. That tells us that the butt guide size and distance between spool and butt guide is important. Efficiently passing the line through the guides becomes dependent on clean guides.

> There are so many variables in this whole issue,
> even though it's casting and not spinning, that it
> is mind-boggling. And maybe, the opportunities
> are very limited (Norman Miller). It may not make
> a heck of a lot of difference what we do.

After you have completed mind-boggling, it will become clear.

Advise your customer to use a quality casting reel. These will usually have two cast controls (braking systems).

If the reel is low profile with fixed round guide (or approximately round), Run a line through the guide, then to the inside top of the transition or running guide. Adjust the butt and transition guides as necessary while compensating for a static load test.

If the casting reel has a movable guide (usually 2 vertical wires) or is open cage, the process is basically the same. This time you will need to compensate for the height of the line on the spool. First, the line needs to come from the top of the empty or near empty spool and guide positions determined. Next, repeat the checks with the line coming from the top of a full spool. Repeat as necessary.

> Before long we will have "braid reels" and "mono
> reels" and "FC reels" and maybe even "hybrid
> reels." Then, "braid reels below 50 pound test",
> and "mono reels between 12 and 20". . . you get
> the picture.

No, went right past me! Just kidding ;)

From the far side, I helped an acquaintance build a dual rung rod. All the rules went out the window to achieve the desired outcome. After establishing the Kw guide positions, I told him to tape on the guides and test the rod in the park. After about two weeks I asked him how the testing came out. He said the testing was great and he caught an 8 lb bonefish. He still needed to build the rod and wanted to buy another blank. The person, along with his friend, finally took the rods to the field for testing. Using both spinning and casting reels they made their longest cast in their fishing history.

>
> Let's just go fishing.

Have a great Thanksgiving Day,
Don

Don Becker

Some interesting responses of late.

Personally, I don't see how the reel can be the root of the problem, when the guide train is used to control the line, after it leaves the reel. Does the reel play a roll in casting distance? Most definitely. But if the guide train can't handle the line after it leaves the reel, your super tuned high performance reel is no better than a reel of lesser quality.

You can put a 3,000 HP engine in a car, but if the tires can't handle the power, all you've got is a gas guzzler that you can't keep from melting the rear tires.

With that said, I still consider myself new to rod building, and I'm still in the process of learning the intricacies of what I feel affects a rods performance the most, and that is the guide train. I say that because of the difference I've seen in a rod's performance by simply changing its guide train.

A poor guide train can turn a rod that once performed very well, into a rod that you don't even want to pick up. And an excellent guide train can turn a well performing rod, into a rod that performs exceptionally. Same rod, same reel, the only difference being the guide train.

One of the things I've learned since I started building my own rods, is the importance of the relationship between the size, height, and placement of the stripper guide, as they relate to the height of a casting reel's, line guide.

In relation to this thread's subject matter ... what my personal experiences thus far lead me to believe, at least for a casting rod set up is, that any type of guide can perform the same task, and do it just as well, as long as it is of the proper size, height, and is properly located.

No offense

I really don't think many of the custom builders here or their customers are using poor quality reels. Yes, many people use FC line as the main line on baitcasters.