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A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Gary Kilmartin (---.richland.edu)
Date: November 18, 2015 09:05AM

I hesitate to post this, because what I found may very well be a fluke, but here it is.

I recently posted in another thread about amine blush. I had a bad case it appear on a particularly nice holo wrap. The nicest looking one I've been able to do so far. After reading more about this issue I decided to sand it down lightly, using 2000 grit. Then washed it with Dawn and water, and rinsed it very well. When wiped dry it looked like the blush was gone. I was just a bit premature in that conclusion. The blush, in all it's lack of glory, was there the next day.

I thought well it's either strip it off and start over or try another light coat of finish. So I tried another light coat of finish. Put it on very thinly, let it sit and wick off the little bit of sag I had, then started hand turning it to level. I had the cabin up close to 80 degrees, so it seemed to take a bit longer to get to the point where I could turn on the dryer motor and walk away, but it did seem to get to the point.

Came back the next morning on the way to work, and the wrap looked great. nice and level, no blush in evidence, very shiny and clear. Turned of the dryer motor and went to work.

Went back that evening thinking all I has left to do was apply a decal, and found the last coat of finish all sagged to the bottom of the rod. It was not cured at all, still very soft, and the finish left on the foil was still the same consistency it was when I applied it. I stopped having curing problems when I started measuring the two parts by mass instead of volume.

I started the rod turning, and scraped the soft finish off with the back of a razor blade. When I wiped it on a towel it had a distinct yellow tint. It would appear I mixed two equal portions of hardener, and no resin. Yeah, I know; put on the dunce hat and go stand in the corner. So I scraped it down as well as I could, then using a stiff brush and some DNA, got the rest of the hardener off, followed by a warm water rinse and dry.

When I came back the next day, the blush was gone. Completely. After applying a thin coat of properly measured and mixed finish, the wrap looks great. No blush, crystal clear and shiny.

Is it possible the application of hardener to a previously cured epoxy extracted the blush? I'm no chemist. My one college chemistry course is better than 30 years behind me.

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: bill boettcher (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: November 18, 2015 09:10AM

Sand you containers of finish and syringes and make them A - B with a marker so you don't get them confused

Bill - willierods.com

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Fred Yarmolowicz (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: November 18, 2015 11:18AM

One thing I would NOT do is wash with water. Blush is moisture.
Scuffing is all that is needed. Dust it off with a brush , no DNA or other solvents. They will contaminate it. Any dust left after brushing will not be noticeable after a fresh coat is applied.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 18, 2015 12:20PM

Measuring epoxy by volume isn't going to cause a problem - that's the way the formulators intended it to be done. But improper portions won't cause amine blush - that's the result of a specific combination of moisture and CO2.

No, the hardener did not extract the blush. Amine blush will generally resolve itself over some amount of time or temperature change.

............

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Adam Curtis (---.253.133.40.static.ip.windstream.net)
Date: November 18, 2015 05:02PM

You may do all these things suggested and then some ( I did ), and still get Amine, although doing all things suggested should reduce how often it happens.

Had a rod I left it on and the thread color faded before the Amine went away. After over a year I stripped the rod.

Some guys will work in environmental conditions that are just perfect for Amine. Eventually came to that conclusion and reluctantly switched brands.


Good luck and hope you find a solution.

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Chad Barlongo (---.mycingular.net)
Date: November 18, 2015 05:31PM

Hello,

Here in the islands, I will not apply finish in the evenings if the day was humid and the temperature is dropping.

It seems more cases of amine blush occur here under those conditions, perhaps your locale is similar as well..

-chad

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Ken Finch (---.ip-167-114-102.net)
Date: November 18, 2015 05:42PM

I always look for a rainy day to apply finish. I reasoned that it would reduce airborne dust and insects. Never had a case of blush and often do this with the windows open.

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Michael Danek (192.183.51.---)
Date: November 19, 2015 10:23AM

This is interesting: [www.yachtpaint.com]

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Chester Kiekhafer (107.77.87.---)
Date: November 19, 2015 07:37PM

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is interesting:
> [www.yachtpaint.com]
> what-is-amine-blush.aspx


Thanks for posting the link.

Very interesting, no mention of CO2 being a contributing factor.

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 21, 2015 05:22PM

Just curious if anyone has mentioned "induction time"?

Lots of well known info on subject. Very easy to prevent with some knowledge and, possibly, some control of environmental conditions.

Also question if real problem is amine blushing.....or instead blooming. To correct a problem you have to know for certain what the problem is.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: Gary Kilmartin (---.richland.edu)
Date: November 25, 2015 09:44AM

Thanks Russ. Your comments led me to do some research. Found a good article, with everything I didn't know I didn't know, and was to dumb to ask. I know now what I need to do to correct the environmental conditions which are the root cause of my problem.

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Re: A cure for amine blush???
Posted by: John E Powell (---.dynamic.wnyric.org)
Date: November 25, 2015 04:59PM

I've done a lot of research on the subject over the years and dealing with amine blush is one of those kinds of problem where it's helpful to keep in mind the environmental contexts to which observations and recommendations are reported. For instance, about half the reports I’ve reviewed mention carbon dioxide as a factor, however these reports tend to come from industrial applications where environmental application conditions might vary widely from what you fill find in your home, garage, or shop. In an industrial scenario the chance of having an elevated CO2 levels is a much more likely scenario than you experiencing elevated CO2levels in your shop or home. I doubt many of us have a plan to monitor and adjust CO2 levels in our shop, so it doesn't serve much of a practical purpose to worry about C02 since we really can’t do much about it. Instead, it probably makes more sense to consider what we can do in our shops or homes to minimize the possibility of this phenomena.

I’ve compiled a list of tips and best practices from a myriad of sources. Now, keeping in mind that these tips are specifically for reducing the possibility of blush occurring, we have to balance when we might want to bend or break some of these tips to get the overall results were looking for. If you don’t experience blush in your finish and you’re otherwise happy with your results, then keep doing what you’re doing. Interestingly, many of these tips are things most of us are already doing, but this is a good checklist even for more experienced users. Some of these are “no brainers” while others may contradict common practice and “rodbuilding lore” that is not based in chemistry.

1) Make sure any water based color preservers are sufficiently dry. If they are not absolutely dry you run the risk of problems. If in doubt, wait longer for your CP to dry.

2) Premix the resin and hardener before dispensing each part, especially if it has turned white and was subsequently heated to return it to a clear state.

3) Keep all materials at or very close to 70 degrees F. Don’t preheat epoxy to thin it prior to mixing. Placing items of different temperatures in contact with each other encourages water vapor to condense from the air. Pre-heating epoxy in open air, especially on days with a high relative humidity, will introduce moisture vapor to the mix. If you feel your current epoxy is too thick at room temperature, then choose a different thinner epoxy.

4) Measure your epoxy by volume, not weight.

5) Don’t futz with the chemistry – resist the “rodbuilding lore” recommending adding drops of acetone or other thinners. Very simplistically, all adding acetone or any other “thinner” accomplishes is to make it harder for molecules of part A to find and match up with their part B counterparts. The linking of molecules is designed to happen in a predictable way over a specific time period and futzing with the chemistry alters the desired chemical reaction.

6) Inadequate or improper mixing – the single most noted cause of blush. Mix the epoxy thoroughly and completely. Rather than trying to explain this in words, just do exactly what is recommended in this FlexCoat video: [www.youtube.com] Note at the beginning of the video Roger shows warming the epoxy, do this only if it’s cold for some reason and try not to go above 70F (see cautionary note about temperature in tip #3 above)

7) Induction time, a necessary but rarely if ever mentioned step in the process. From a chemical reaction standpoint, insufficient induction (sweat-in time) can cause a lot of problems. Many epoxy coatings require a specified induction time in order to fully “compatibilize” the epoxy resin and the hardener. This pre-reaction will reduce the likelihood of poor film appearance and poor coating performance. Lower temperatures and/or high humidity will generally require longer induction periods. Improperly inducted epoxies will exhibit a lower gloss than expected, yellowing becoming progressively worse over time, polyamide/amine blushing, reduced chemical resistance, and/or a softer film. It should be noted that the time given for induction to occur must be subtracted from the mixed epoxy’s “pot life.”

8) After applying epoxy, and once the “pot life” has expired and the mixture begins to set, maintain a consistent relative humidity below 85% and a minimum temperature of 70 degrees F for a period of three (3) days. You can reduce this time by 50% by increasing the temperature 10 degrees F to 80 F.

9) If you can, avoid busting bubbles with heat. Recalling tip #3, understand that a difference in epoxy temp compared to the air temp encourages water vapor condensation which leads to blush. If you have to use heat to bust bubbles, don’t do it where the relative humidity is high.

Again, keep in mind that these tips are specifically for reducing the possibility of blush occurring, we have to balance when we might want to bend or break some of these tips to get the overall results were looking for. If you don’t experience blush in your finish and you’re otherwise happy with your results, then keep doing what you’re doing.

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