Being a relatively new rod builder, I would appreciate insight into the significance to strength and durability of treating thread with color preservative. It seems the consensus is that color preservative causes the connection between the blank and wrapping to be not as strong as untreated thread. My question is, how significant is the deficiency and should treating or using treated thread be avoided?

Thanks in advance for your help!

There is no "deficiency." You will never tear a guide off a rod that's been wrapped with nylon thread and treated with color preserver. If you somehow do, then look elsewhere for the problem - it won't be because of the thread and CP.

.....................

Michael, I have used color preserver on the most demanding rods you could imagine and never had an issue with the durability of guide feet. I strongly disagree with what you call the "consensus" .It is not the finish that is holding the guide to the blank it's the thread. A proper guide wrap will hold any guide to the blank. Beyond that the finish epoxy is just to protect the thread. Go ahead and use or don't use color preserver depending on the effect you desire. It wont hurt a thing. If you really want to prove what I am saying do two guides the same one with one without preserver and introduce heavy stress. Like hang lifting plates to them. I bet you will find the frames give out before your wraps!

Just to add you get a nicer color with regular nylon and CP then with NCP thread

Bill - willierods.com

My consensus comment is based on what I have read and may not be accurate; I recently attended a rod building class put on by a master rod builder and he was quite adamant about the effects of color preservative. I have been struggling with finding threads which maintain color once the epoxy is applied and the primary reason for my request for help.

Thanks again to all for the help!

bill boettcher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just to add you get a nicer color with regular
> nylon and CP then with NCP thread
Really? Wow, I haven't used any NCP thread so that good to know. How would you define "nicer color"? No offenses intended, just quirius. I was planning to buy some NCP...
My own experience with CP is not the best. Don't like the stuff. I have tried different brands without any good result. Better to do a test wrap and add the epoxy without CP on a scrap blank to see what exact color it will be.
Just my 0,02$ worth... ????
KR Göran

Bill no offense but I disagree. I don't think "nicer" is the word. It is just different. One is translucent on is not. It depends on what the affect is you are looking for.
Goran, The best color preserver I have ever found is not made any more and has not been around for years. I think it was like 901 or something like that from 10 15 years ago. It was the greatest stuff. Now I use chromaseal and have good results. What has been your problem? Its water based which is what I prefer.

Hi Billy.
I've been Using U-40 and some other water based CP. Main problems were inconsistent colors. Or blotchy rather.
For me it's better to do some test wraps on a scrap blank without CP so you know what you will get as a final result.
I have never tried NCP so I was qurious about how that would work. I guess I'll have to try some before I pass judgement.

No offense taken
Builders do things differently and beleave different things will work better
Regular nylon with CP ( put on correctly ) will have a nicer or better or pretter look then the ( painted ) look of NCP thread
And of course if you want a transparent look you are right but either way it just looks better IMHO A more Vibrient color
And the 901 was great ! Chromeseal is thinner then most I played with several and when covered like to heat a ( little ) just to speed dry it to get it off the dryer But have found that some CPs do not like heat so I went back to Flex Coat Thin a tad and use several coats each applied ( before ) it drys just as it soaks into the thread or if dry the next coat will not Penetrate the dry coat

Bill - willierods.com

Hello Michael,

Other than color preserver, here are a few things you could try that will help maintain some--but not all--of the original spool color:

1. Pick a color that is a few shades lighter than what you want, such that when it darkens with epoxy it will be close to your desired color.

2. Experiment with an underwrap of silver or gold metallic. The thread will still darken, but will take on a bright candy apple effect that can be quite nice.

3. Paint the blank white in the area which you plan to wrap. Again, the thread will still darken but not as much as it would if wrapped onto a dark-colored blank.
I have had good results using Rustoleum semi-gloss and waiting a few weeks before wrapping.

-chad



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2015 04:17PM by Chad Barlongo.

If you use a spray paint make sure it Says Lacquer on it fast dry next day or even less service

Bill - willierods.com

Thanks Chad

There is a recent tread below on the next page titled 'color preservers'. You may find that tread useful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2015 04:33PM by Norman Miller.

Thanks Norman!

Playing devil's advocate here, because I happen to agree with the original poster and his instructor, (but not necessarily that it is a consensus opinion). Why would there be a need for locking wraps on guides if guides never loosen over time with use?

"You will never tear a guide off a rod that's been wrapped with nylon thread and treated with color preserver" really? I suppose the photos of such failures I've seen posted could be "photoshopped" forgeries by people with a pro epoxy / anti CP agenda...

Let us use some common sense here. Does completely saturated CP'd thread provide the same adhesion and strength as completely saturated epoxy thread? If it does, then why do we bother with the extra step of epoxying the thread at all? Why not just CP everything and skip the finish?

OK "tongue in cheek" aside, the real question should be does CP'd and then epoxied thread provide adequate strength for most, but not all, service duties? The logical answer to that question is yes. Does this mean that there are some more severe applications where it might be prudent to go with straight epoxy and forego the CP? The logical answer to that question is also yes.

BTW,
Chad's advice is dealing with no CP on guide wraps is spot on.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2015 04:46PM by John E Powell.

John, locking wraps are used on single foot guides as they can be pulled out from under the wraps, with or without CP! There is a huge difference between a wrap around two feet and one around a single foot, in strength preventing removal, again with or without CP.

One applies epoxy to protect the threads from abrasive damage and for appearance, again with or without CP.

I personally believe that epoxy only probably does have a little more adhesion properties than CP, but also think the difference is, irrelevant in most rod builds!

Maybe a test, of both application methods, with subsiquent guide removal to observe the results would be enlightening.

The RodMaker Magazine tests from 15 years ago should have put this idea to rest for all time. You'll destroy the guide frame before you can tear a guide wrapped with nylon and treated with CP off the rod.

Epoxy is there to protect the thread, not to hold the guide to the rod.

There comes a time when there is more than strong enough, and strong beyond necessary.

.........................

Thanks Tom, this is wearing me out! No disrespect intended because I do appreciate everyone's time and comments!
Thank you all for your contribution!

Michael, don't stress it. Don't make the mistake of treating any individuals advice as a rule; there are few, if any, absolutes in rodbuilding. Rodbuilding is more about learning the capabilities and limitations of different materials, and approaches and techniques so you can make appropriate choices for you or your customer's needs, not a third party's needs. So take in people's advice giving credence to what seems logical or is a consensus. Be wary of any advice presented as an absolute.

Phil, we're not in disagreement on the locking wrap - that was just an illustration to remind us that guides can and do move and because they do we try to improve our technique to overcome the problem. It's a parallelism of sorts to the CP or no CP debate. The notion that guides can't or wont move if CP'd is bunk if presented as an absolute and not a practical sense. We can choose to lock wrap single foot guides because guides can and do move.

I would suggest that we keep the analogy of the chicken and the egg in mind, which came first... If we stress a guide to a failure scenario what happens first? Does the guide deform first before the holding power of the wrap fails, or does the bond fail and the guide deform after the bond failure as it is being pulled from it original spot? I'd argue that in most, but not every case, it's probably the latter. Where bond failure occurs first, the stronger adhesion of epoxy would provide a higher failure point than CP. Practically speaking, for the vast majority of builds this is a mute point as the rod will never be stressed to such extremes. And just to keep things in perspective, I do it both ways depending on the design elements and the intended use. When I build a set of rods for charter captains I don't use CP - in some cases these rods will see 1000+ hours a year fully loaded baking in the sun and stored 24/7 outside in a boat's rod racks. When I build rods for more casual use, where design factors have a higher priority, I mostly use CP.

The notion that finish supplies abrasion and impact resistance is true in a sense that if you apply CP, the finish is a coating. But without CP the finish can do more than just coat. So ask yourself two questions:
1) Which is stronger epoxy or CP? (absolute question)
2) Is the weaker one good enough for me or must I have the stronger? (practical application)

One nice thing about the magazine regarding such tests - they're neither opinions nor advice, just tests and results.

From those tests we know that the guide frame deforms prior to any damage being done to the wrap. We also know that the overall difference in wrap strength is between 7% and 11%. And we know that CP treated wraps are not in any way inherently weak. They are more than up to the task required, even on big game trolling rods.

................