Hey guys so I am going to be building a Carolina Rig rod soon on a 7'2 M Immortal blank. I want to use alps guides. Basically to go from the lower end guides to their zirconium material it is a $10 difference. I am just wondering if it is worth it? Are they light enough to make a difference? I will be using size 4 guides. Honestly I have always just used 4.5 fujis with alconite guides, but I want to try something different just cause. Im not sure how much of a difference is between these two guide ring materials.

Thanks!

$10 difference is a small investment to make in the cost of a quality rod.

For me; definitely worth the difference. Almost anything you can do to lighten a rod will improve (feel)-sensitivity and the more little things you do the more sensitive
I would suggest 6mm double ft stripper then single foot the rest of the way -5mm-4mm- then 3mm's to the tip.
The 3's being a little lighter will help move the balance point further towards the butt of the rod, improving bite detection

To further improve sensitivity I would either make graphite handle or use Batson's graphite tubing and personally would go with the tapered slit grip setup.
Their new ALPS MVT reel seat with also improve sensitivity, but represents a large investment as far as reel seats go. but is the only option I would choose.

Cameron,
Steve has pointed you in the right direction. I would certainly go with the advice provided. I have followed his suggestions throughout the years and they have been spot on!!! You will be very happy with the build as suggested.

Tom

Thank you guys for the replies. I have never used different sized guides other than I do use one 6mm stripper as my first guide. How many 5's, 4's, and 3's would you do? Also I typically but a little weight in the rod to balance it as well. If I do that, will that have the same effect as using smaller guides to lighten the tip? I also really want to use the MVT reel seat, but it maybe out of my price range on this build I am not sure yet. I typically use a Fuji ECSM

Mr. Johnson,
I would say that lighter guides in the tip could have an effect on balance, but the main reason I like to run as light in the tip is to increase sensitivity and leave as much of the blank's unbuilt action in tact as possible. Also, if our MVT seat isn't in the cards for you, a split reel seat such as our SRSGC16 is an excellent option. Your trigger finger(s) grasping the rod blank directly = pretty darn good bite detection. Take care.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Thanks I will look into that! I appreciate it!

Cameron,

Steve offered fantastic advice. I took Steve's advice when I started building, 1 Alps LXN 6mm for the butt guide, 1 single foot fly 5mm, 1 4mm, and the rest 3mm. For a 7'2" blank, you will need a total of 9-11 guides depending on how you space them. Since then I've developed my own way of doing things, based on what I want to get from my rods, but you will still see a lot of Steve's influence in my builds.

I will note that most of my personal rods have the hard aluminum oxide inserts. Micro guides with zirconia inserts weren't readily available shortly after Steve introduced them to us, so if you are on the frugal side, you will find that these get the job done just fine. They have for me. The added benefits of zirconia are that it is a bit harder making it less likely to grove, a bit more impact resistant meaning that it will take a higher energy density to crack the insert, a little smoother finish, and a good substrate for PVD coatings. I don't have any zirconia guides on hand to give you an idea of the weight difference, though I don't think it's all that much. I generally use guide size to help with the weight as opposed to ring and frame materials. Ring and frame material choices depend on who is using the rod, the environment (fresh vs. salt), and how hard they are on their equipment. In the smaller sizes some steel frame guides come in lighter than Ti frame guides.

In regard to adding weight. You will change the balance of the rod, which will give the effect of the tip feeling lighter, but there are tradeoffs involved. You will pay a penalty in sensitivity as you are adding mass/inertia to the rod. That makes it harder to start and stop once in motion leading to longer damping times and less crisp feeling signals in your hand. The penalty for weight added to the butt is much smaller than for weight added to the tip, but it's still there. Use your build technique to try to eliminate the need to balance, but if you still feel it's needed, the amount of weight required will be less.

In regard to guide size, if you aren't passing knots, you can go as small as you dare. If you are passing knots, then you need to take into consideration the knots you use and how cleanly you trim them. 4mm guides are a phenomenal compromise for many bass rods. The guides are light enough that you get a significant weight reduction in the guide train over traditional guide trains, but large enough to pass well trimmed knots easily, and I can usually get by with 1 fewer guide in my guide train. If you want to keep things as light as possible, then 3's or smaller allow you to do so. On my builds, finesse rods are more likely to have 3mm guides, and power fishing technique rods are more likely to have 4mm guides.

There are a number of ways to skin this cat, and none of them are right or wrong, just a matter of choosing which way you want to go.

Joe

Thank you for all the advice! That is a lot of help. I noticed you said the LXN guide. I will be using 20lb braid with this rod, and that guide says it is rated to 17lb. Is that ok?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2015 11:58AM by Cameron Johnson.

I've had no issues with the LXN as a butt guide with 20 lb. braid on bass rods. The F guides are the traditional sized fly guides in 6mm+ and the PMK is the micro line in sizes 3mm-5mm.

I think that Steve made one very good point. A lighter guide train on a rod tend to make the overall rod feel better in your hand.

Also, if at all possible, do NOT add any weight to the rod. If you have an issue with rod balance, just make the rear grip a bit longer to get the rod to balance.

The actual ring material has essentially 0 effect on the sensitivity of the rod. However, a lighter guide is certainly in your best interest.

I think that your choice of micro or a bit taller guide is entirely up to you. I am not completely convinced that putting on 3 more micro guides cause a rod to be any better than a rod with 3 fewer conventional guides that will handle the line just as well, since the extra height keeps the line off of the rod.

I suspect that the main use for micro guides these days is for the Bass fisherman. I think that micros also serve another function - especially for the bass fisherman. Since the guides are so small and short, I suspect that they mainly hold up a bit better and tangle a bit less when a tournament fisherman has a dozen rods laying about on the front deck at the same time.

However, Steve gives excellent advice and his building advice and techniques has withstood the test of the hard core tournament bass fisherman.

As has been said many many times before. Build the rod for the desired application and person using the rod. What ever the customer wants, the customer gets - when one is speaking of the "custom rod builder".

Be safe

Roger;
Just a bit of weight info
It takes a total of six 3-mm guides to equal the weight of one 6-mm guide. So if you remove six 6-mm guides and replace them with nine 3-mm guides you have removed approximately 83% of the guide train weight.
and that does not take into account that you are using about a third as much of the thread and epoxy to it takes for 6-mm guides .

Cameron;
I use LXN guides and 3-mm guides throwing 30-40-50-65-and 80 pound braids and have not have a single failure with an ALPS guide in the last
4-1/2 to 5 years, since their introduction.

Cameron:

As a tournament angler, I can personally attest to the the fact that micro guides have great benefits.

Through my own trials (and errors) I have found that using the Kigan ZDH 5.5 then 5 and then pac bay minima 4's in tich to the top is the best perfoming and must durable guide train i've been able to use. I use the pac bay tip tops CP4CT and have not had a single tip top fail.

I recently started using the Kigan hookkeeper and it has impressed me so far.

Most of my builds are for tournament anglers and I've had nothing but positive feedback on the durability and sensitivity of this set up.

Just my 2 cents.

Joe

Joe,
I notice that the CP4CT comes in a size 6 ring for the smallest. Do you go from the minima 4's to the size 6 tip because that is the smallest available in that style, or am I misreading something?
Gary

I usually match micro guides to a fuji micro top. They have a broad range of tube sizes with 4.5 rings



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2015 12:27PM by Mike Lawson.

I do use the size 6 because the smaller tip tops don't allow heavier line (17-25lb mono or floro) to bend as freely as the 6 during a cast. Plus during a retrieve the bend in the line is such that it makes it feel rough. I've had both the micro top (size 4) and size 6 on the same rod and noticed a substantial difference on the feel of the cast. I know the "feel" isn't quantifiable but it's something that makes a world of difference in my finished rods. I've used almost every name brand ring material and have had failures with all but the pac bay minimas.