Hi everyone,

I am building a very nice UL for panfish and small bass at the moment (first KR Concept build). The foundation is a 6' UL St. Croix SCIII blank, Fuji size 16 reel seat and a set of Titanium Torzite KL (size 16, 8, 5.5), KT (size 4) and KB (3 size 4) guides with a LG micro tip top (size 4). 8 guides total plus the tip.

The guide placement I'm starting from is the Anglers Resource GPS software for the KR Concept. This method suggests using only 3 running guides. After laying out the choke guides and the belly guide, this leaves the running guide spacing (if set equally apart) at 6.125" apart from each other between the belly guide and tip top. This seems like a very large distance apart to me (especially the distance from the first running guide to the tip top). I have seen other documents say the first running guide (closest to the tip top) should be around 4" from the tip top. Your thoughts or experience with this?

I've done my static load test and casting test and too me this setup passes those tests. I just feel like I should add one more KB running guide to shorten up this distance between the running guides and allow the first one to be closer to the tip top. I have a decent amount of money in this rod and just want to bounce this off of you guys with experience with the KR Concept builds.

Thanks guys,
Greg Kiester

Just had a 7'6" 3 weight fly rod built as a spinning rod. Used a KL-H 16, KL-6M and a LTSG 4 as the reduction train. All running guides are LTSG 4s. My priority was keeping the rod as lightweight as possible. My guide spacing is based on simple trig, which I presume is what GPS is all about. After I verify my angles, a quick mock up is all that is left. This rod is a 2 piece and has the first LTSG 4 on the ferrule. Short wraps and light finish is another key element. With rods this light, I see no need for a KB guide as a transition point.

I have some experience with the KR guide setup and I I agree with your reduction guide sizes. You say you are using 3 KB's? Are those not the heavier belly guides? I don't think you need 3 belly guides. I think I would put one KB after the reduction guides, then finish it off with the regular micros, the KB and the micros the same size.

I believe that every guide after the 3 reduction guides is placed according to the stress balance test, then refined as necessary if casting indicates you can improve on that. With a light rod it is doubtful that you will

Regarding the total number of guides, I would do exactly as you are suggesting, letting the rod blank tell you where to put them, but I agree with getting the final guide closer to the tip. I think you will end up with 7 guides on a 6 foot rod, which seems right according to traditional recipes.

Since you are using the expensive stuff, I suggest you read the blog articles at the Anglers Resource web site. The first three articles are on the KR concept, and if I interpret one of them correctly, it recommends only two reduction guides, with the KLH 5.5 being replaced by a KB 4. I have built a couple rods with only two reduction guides, and frankly, I cannot tell any difference between two and three. With a lightweight rod designed for very light mono or braid, I think the difference is indetectible. IMHO

One thing I've noticed on the guide placement software is that for some reels it gives what seems like very strange results. When I find that I go back to common sense and experience. And looking to achieve the "target rings" view when looking down the guides from the rear.

I really like the treatment of the K groups that Fuji has on page 46 of their 2015 catalog, available for download through a link on their website.

Sorry to be so verbose.

I agree with Steve on the need for a KB, I've built a couple rods before they even came out and have had no problems. So really light rods should have less need for a KB than my medium power rods.

Greg,

If you feel better about the set up with one additional running guide, add it.

.............

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the feedback.

Steve and Michael, I did make a mistake in my origional post... Here is the 'edited' details of my build.

The foundation is a 6' UL St. Croix SCIII blank, custom turned cork split grip, Fuji size 16 reel seat and a set of Titanium Torzite guides, KL (size 16H, 8H, 5.5M), 1 KB (size 4) and 3 KT (size 4) guides with a LG micro tip top (size 4). 8 guides total including the tip. I am putting a Shimano Stradic Ci4 1000 reel on it and will run 4lb nanofill with a 4lb flourocarbon leader.

Tom,

This was kind of my thought... an extra guide wont hurt anything except the very very small amount of additional weight. It should give the rod a little more backbone too (not that its really needed).

I am goign to run the numbers again on my build.

Thanks again,
Greg

Greg, that is something I wondered about when I used the KR GPS to help with the two spinning rods I've built. I realize the number of running guides is merely a suggested number of guides, but how can it make a suggestion when the power and action of the blank are not considered in the equation.

It's great software though. At least I found it to be. The rods I built using the sizes and measurements provided by it, perform exceptionally well. The software suggested 4 running guides, but after static testing I ended up with 6 running guides, with the choke guide included in that number. 9 total plus the tip top, on a 6'6" medium light power rod.

I may have been able to get away with one less running guide, but considering the light power of the rod and its intended use, I chose to go with the additional guide to provide the added power that you mentioned.

All,

Looking back through the Anglers Resource KR GPS software and a few other charts for the KR Concept, I have found each one to be slightly different than the other. Some don't take in account the reel size. Some don't take in account the reel location relative to the rod blank. Some charts don't have reduction trains for UL setups on 6' or longer blanks.

With the understanding that the suggested use of these are solely intended as good "starting points" and after looking into the numbers a little more, I have decided to add one more running guide to help distribute the load better across the tip section.

Thanks for the incite guys. Looks like I will be wrapping this one up next weekend.

Happy 4th everyone!

Greg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2015 07:22AM by Greg Kiester.

KR Concept is an ongoing evolution. The original idea reduced the length of the reduction train and introduced a completely new selection of guides. From there, "groups" of reduction guides were noted and implemented into the theory. The work that revealed that the defined groups worked over a range of reels ultimately lead to the current software and have served to simplify the application of the concept over a wide range of layouts.

While it's nice to know that guys like Michael are excellent students of the KR Concept, we seldom use the "original" parameters (other than as a reference) on our latest experimental projects opting instead to move forward with the latest information. I think it's important to be grounded in the original hypothesis but I think we've moved along to a simpler place that is every bit as effective and perhaps a little better than where we started.

Back in the "day" it took the New Guide Concept many years to become the accepted norm. KR Concept is still very new and yet its advantages are being discovered every day by more and more users. As it moves toward becoming a "standard" we may well see further modification. With the addition of the RV double-foot, KR has moved into a position to be appropriate for almost any layout on any rod.

I'm still failing a bit to get confident with one particular layout as i'm finding so many different ones. And in this continuous evolution i've lost track of what's the newest and most accepted.
And i appreciate you have discussed these same topics to sickness and beyond.

Some examples to follow, the first being the one i've adopted to my previous and only rod i've built, and probably a safe bet to my next one. I wouldn't probably notice a difference with the other configurations, but i have that painful feeling inside where i need to make it as perfect as i can.

- KL20H, KL10H, KL5.5M - KB
- KL20H, KL10H, KL5.5L - KT
- KL20H, KL10H, KL6L, KL5.5L, KB (more parabolic rods)
- KL20H, KL10H, KL6M, KL5.5L, KT (i've been referred to this as the new version of kr)

Then for example, at pag 8 of [anglersresource.net] which I sort of failed to understand (and cannot find "For complete instructionson building the perfect KR CONCEPT rod using Fuji’s new”Group” Concept,download ”Building KR CONCEPT Rods Using Fuji Groups” at our website". Also, I find it confusing sometimes when i find mentions to the KR Gps, or in other instancing it gets mentioned the NCG like in this page (STEP 2: Place the stripper according to the New Guide Concept using the table edge method or GPS with the size reel you plan to use (i.e. a 3000 or 1500 Series reel)


Last but not least, thanks very much for the information contained in this website, they are really priceless.

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