I'm still trying to make absolutely sure that some guides I have are solid titanium framed because I want to sell. I know they're solid because I've never bought any Ti plated guides. But, how does someone know I'm telling the truth.
I've used the magnet test on them. The solid Ti shows no reaction. On some known stainless guides the reaction is instantly strong. However, on some black framed guides, I'm assuming are stainless, there are some that react and some that don't. So, my first question is (because I don't remember): did Fuji make a solid titanium guide in black? If not, is it the black coating that makes some of the guides react and some not? And, does the same hold true for the Ti plated guides? Or, do they react as the stainless guides do?
Anyway, any insight is appreciated.

[www.cartech.com]

[en.wikipedia.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]

As the articles point out, the magnetic properties of either material is not a good indicator as to the composition of the material being tested.

Be safe

Then, there is no way to tell what you got. Een a Fuji tech told me the magnet test is really the only way to tell. But, I didn't ask about plating.
Some I know are solid titanium because I never used them and they still had a label on them and they don't react to magnet. Others I know are stainless and they do. So, that seems to be a pretty good test.

Does anyone have any Fuji weight charts? That may be the only way to tell.

if you file the foot points down a little such as when prepping the feet. You should be able to tell what is plated as the color of the metals will change as you file through the plating into the base metal

That's a good idea. If it exposes enough material which it should. I'll give it a try.

I x2 what Steve said.........

If you bought titanium guides, they are some alloy of titanium. I really don't think any guide supplier sells a guide which is 100% titanium. Suppliers, if you do, chime in here. Because every design/product decision is a trade-off, different alloys are chosen by suppliers depending on what their idea of the right trade-off is. The magnet test is meaningless. But I really doubt if any guide sold as titanium is not bullet proof regarding corrosion or mass.

To me, if you bought titanium guides, you bought titanium guides. If you do not remember any mention of Ti plating, and the guides were unusually expensive, then you bought Ti alloy guides.

Regarding proving to your customers you put Ti guides on their rod, I think they have to trust you, and you have to make sure in your mind that their trust is well placed.

The biggest benefit in titanium [alloy] frames is that they are absolutely impervious to oxidation/rust - a great benefit in salt water, not nearly so important in fresh water. The only guides I am certain about being "solid" titanium [NiTi alloy] are marketed by Recoil. They will not rust or take a set.

Well I'm a retired metal Finisher for the aerospace industries. It is very well known in my field that titanium has a very Bright {White} Spark. Not blue or yellow. You can goggle also if you would like. Hit the bottom of the guide foot on a hard grinding wheel and you will see. Jaa

Phil, please clarify what you mean about "solid titanium." You must not be using solid to mean 100% Ti, right?

Jay, would the plating of a Ti plated SS guide give a white spark and the material under the plating add blue or yellow?

Michael: I'm trying to guess what others mean when they speak of "solid titanium" guides. My impression is that they envision a guide frame which is not plated but composed of the same metal throughout. I am not aware of any guide frames composed of 100% un-alloyed titanium, although such frames may exist. My experience has been with guides composed entirely of a nickel-titanium alloy. Plated metals to some degree suffer the same problems as painted metals.

Michael: I'm trying to guess what others mean when they speak of "solid titanium" guides. My impression is that they envision a guide frame which is not plated but composed of the same metal throughout. I am not aware of any guide frames composed of 100% un-alloyed titanium, although such frames may exist. My experience has been with guides composed entirely of a nickel-titanium alloy. Plated metals to some degree suffer the same problems as painted metals.

Mike I can confirm that American-Tackle Titan, guides spark white. I had 1 extra from a build that I just hit on the grinder to confirm that. I unfortunately don't have a so called plated one, But I would say no, As the titanium coating would be measured in a millionth of an inch as far as coating thickness goes, They just don't give this stuff away, But a millionth of an inch would still provide super Corrosion resistance as in fresh water. Now I pulled my Metal Finishers Digest which is the Bible for all Plating all metal coatings this is what I found, {Titanium is a very active metal which cannot be electroplated (out of a conventional aqueous bath). Cladding is a physical process where a skin of titanium is mechanically bonded to the substrate by a vacuum deposited layer of titanium}. This tells me the process is more then likely a vacuum furnace deposited layer of titanium the same that is use on drills and cutting tools not a true plating process. Now when I went to American Tackle web site they list these Titan guides as {Solid Titanium A-Frame Spinning Guides} Now you have to realize there are various grades of Titanium so I would not say any of these guides are going to have the same Grade Titanium that are use for an aircraft engine turbine That is explained here {[gmttitanium.com]} but you have to understand it is still 100% Titanium, Different grades for different applications, some may take more heat but may be very brittle and crack easy some take less heat but are more flexible , Some harder some softer so you can work with it with a hand file. Aircraft turbine grade titanium you are not going to hand file on you will be there all day and maybe remove .005 thousands of an inch. Now I'm just throwing this in as there different grades of stainless steel just like titanium 18-8 being the highest grade here is the make-up of different grades { [www.bosunsupplies.com] } Just remember all these metal are made up of alloys. The stainless link, shows the alloys that make up each grade of stainless such as Chromium % the Nickle% and so on. I hope you can understand it's hard to explain in layman's terms on a web site but I did the best I could. Tight Lines Jaa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2015 11:30PM by Jay Dubay.

Thanks Jay and Phil. I noted in my American Tackle catalog that they also call their guides titanium alloy. I also don't believe there is a single guide that is not an alloy. AT is saying, I believe, that their Ti guides are solid, unplated, titanium alloy. I do know that the physical characteristics of different source's "titanium" guides" vary dramatically.

Hi Todd,

Thought I’d weigh in here.

Angler’s Resource should be able to tell you what was made in titanium frames and what wasn’t. Both their titanium and Ti coated frames can look similar in color and sheen which tends to be bright or “titanium” looking. I cannot speak for Fuji but I don’t remember them offering titanium frames with back finish. Although you can deposition titanium frames to have a dark or even black finish, it adds considerable cost to an already expensive product only to look similar to a less expensive product so it doesn’t make sense. I know many of our customers want a raw greyish titanium frame to look the part instead of a highly polished or color-coated frame.

For years some frames have been described as “titanium” that were only Ti coated to give the impression that they were titanium. Fuji was the first for solid titanium ceramic frame guides. We were first to have a comprehensive line of titanium guides but now others have joined in offering titanium guides with some still figuring out how to produce them. A properly Ti coated stainless can look just like titanium and even protect against corrosion like titanium but should not be confused with solid titanium as they can serve different purposes.

We use “solid” as already pointed out, to refer the fact that it is titanium and not a Ti coated stainless frame. Also mentioned is that titanium used for guide frames is an alloy, as 100% pure(if even possible) would not be affordable or likely not survive the stamping, folding and molding of the material during manufacturing. Titanium is also used in various grades of hardness for the very same reasons. Choosing the correct alloy or grades can make all the difference in the process and the end product. For instance we will vary grades for different guide styles/sizes/manufacturing as well as incorporation into the detailed frame design requirements, such as our Ring Lock guides.

Our goal for solid titanium frame guides is to have frames strong enough for the intended rod/line size usage but at the same time be as light weight and flexible as possible allowing each rod(blank) to perform at its best. That flexibility and weight reduction far outweighs the benefits of corrosion proof that titanium is renowned for. Although both titanium and coated stainless frames have their place in pricing and application, we tend to see titanium is an ultimate performance rather than endurance oriented product.

Best Regards,

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company

thanks, Darrin, I think I'm speaking for others and me in appreciating the comments from a knowledgeable source.

Weigh them. Titanium is about 2/3rds the weight of stainless.
Braith

No black Titanium from Fuji that we have ever heard of. Darrin is right, the weight is the real boost on any rod although I really like not having to worry about Titanium guides after a day of salt spray.