I need some help. I'm going to be ordering a Pac Bay Quickline blank from Utmost Enterprises in the near future. Since Pac Bay lists the CCS numbers instead of lure weight ratings and blank actions in their catalog for their Quickline blanks, I decided to take some CCS numbers of one of my factory rods that has the type of action I'm looking for, and compare them to the numbers for the Quickline blank I'm interested in.

I followed the procedure outlined in the Common Cents Info link provided at the left of this page. I don't know if I should be surprised or not, but the CCS numbers I came up with once all the conversions outlined in the system were done, matched the lure weight rating and the action of the rod almost exactly as it's listed on the rod's blank. This leads me to believe that I followed the procedure correctly.

What I need help with, is understanding intrinsic power? I understand that it is used to determine the power of the rod, but if you look at the numbers provided in Pac Bay's catalog, the particular blank I plan on purchasing as an IP number of 552. It says that, that number represents grams for non fly rods. 552 grams is roughly 19.5 ounces. This blank is rated as a medium light powered blank. What am I missing as far as understanding here? lol And how would I come up with such a number for the factory rod I checked?

Following are the numbers for the factory rod I checked. And the procedure I followed to get them. Perhaps there is something in them that those of you more experienced with this system can use to hopefully help me understand Pac Bay's Intrinsic Power numbers better.

I had the rod secured in my hand wrapper, with a support stand butted up against the end of the fore grip. I cut the blade arm off of a spinnerbait form to use as the pointer, and attached it per the CCS photo. The low range number was reached by observing the rod blank and adding weight until I saw it bending at one third the length of the rod. I then recorded the number of pennies I had in the bag. I continued adding pennies until the tip of the rod was the proper distance from the floor, which in my case was 19 3/8". I derived the 19 3/8" number by taking the height of the horizontal rod from the floor (46") then subtracted 1/3 of the rods length (26 5/8") from the horizontal rod height. I then recorded the number of pennies in the bag. Then I took the Action Angle chart I printed out, and checked the action angle as instructed. BTW, it was pretty cool how that wire pointer separated from the blank.

I converted the number of pennies to grains and then ounces as outlined in the CCS link. My low range in grains was 81. Converted to ounces, slightly below 3/16 oz. High range was 280 grains. Converted to ounces, slightly below 5/8 oz. The rod's lure rating is 3/16 - 5/8 oz.. The AA was just under 80. 78 I suppose. The rod is rated as an extra fast action. As I said earlier, all my numbers fell in the range, so I'm assuming I did it right.

Hopefully this post makes sense, and that my question is clear. I'd greatly appreciate any help you much smarter than I people can give me. I'm going to buy the blank regardless. I just don't know how "they", Pac Bay, came up with the intrinsic power rating

Define "Medium Light Power." Obviously, you can't do it as it's a subjective term, not a number. After awhile you tend to throw out those subjective terms and just work with the numbers. A good example is length, where we got rid of the "long" "short" nonsense and just measure in feet and inches.

You're doing fine. The Intrinsic Power Rating is explained in Dr. Hanneman's article on the Universal Rod Rating System. I'll have to look up the volume and issue number later today for you.

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Tom, thank you very much for your response. I was hoping and counting on you to be one of the people that could help me make sense of these numbers. You're definitely right when you say "define medium light power". I can't. It's different for every manufacturer, and from my experience, it's even different for different rods series from the same manufacturer.

Thank you again Tom. I truly appreciate you taking the time to look things up to help me understand this better. And than you for the encouraging "you're doing fine" comment. It makes me feel like I'm actually learning what I think I am.

One thing I haven't done yet, but I will be doing shortly, is subscribing to RodMaker Magazine.


Once more ...... thank you.

Hello David.

I believe the article Tom is speaking of is in RM 10-4 page 14.


Tight Wraps.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Dave,

The IP is the amount of weight it takes to deflect the tip by 1/3 of the overall blank length, i.e. if you held the rod horizontal a pound and a quarter bass would deflect the tip by 1/3 the length of the rod. In fly rods the IP is tied to the weight of 30' of fly line, as it will help you determine which weight of fly line will load your rod properly for casting. In terms of non-fly rods, the IP serves as a means of comparing the relative power of various blanks. It is not the dead lift capacity of the blank or anything along those lines.

While taking your measurements, you likely recorded the number of pennies it took to deflect the rod by 1/3 of its total length. Converting that number to grams will allow you to compare with the Quicklime blanks.

Hope this helps.

Joe

From Dr. Hanneman's article:

The CCS employs the term Intrinsic Power (IP) to quantitate the strength, power or stiffness of a fly rod in terms of the relative amount of weight required to deflect or bend the rod a distance relative to one third of its length. IP can also be expressed in terms of Common Cents (i.e. the number of cents required to so bend the rod) or Effective Rod Number (ERN).
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Note that Dr. Hanneman specified fly rods above, but the CCS does not differentiate between rod types - a blank is a blank is a blank. The CCS doesn't measure rods or blanks - it measures action, power and speed (frequency).

I prefer to use the ERN for comparisons while others will simply use the number of cents, weight, IP, etc, for comparisons. As long as you use the same standard across the board, it doesn't matter. Keep in mind, of course, that the IP is not the amount of weight the rod will cast. It is a strength or power measurement, not the recommended casting weight.

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Just realized we may be causing some confusion out there with the power ratings of the POINT Blank. Our power rating is stated in grams of weight, not pennies.

The power rating for the CCS is ERN, which is derived from the number of cents used to achieve the required deflection. ERN or IP is the best way to list power.

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A new penny weighs 2.5 grams Just got to do some math

Bill - willierods.com

Hello All,
Just wanted to say that for our fly blanks (those with CCS data displayed) we list the intrinsic power number in the form of ERN as defined in the CCS documentation. For our non-fly blanks we display intrinsic power in the form of grams. Both methods are simply ways of expressing the amount of weight required to deflect a blank's tip a distance equal to 1/3 the length of the blank. We visually describe this measurement on page 69 of our 2014 catalog which can be downloaded at www.fishpacbay.com. My personal opinion is: in a perfect scenario all blanks and rods, regardless of intended application, would simply use grams or grains to display intrinsic power.
Pennies are simple, and many builders have now built a frame of reference around ERN, but when dealing with blanks for heavy non-fly applications, using pennies for CCS deflection and listing astronomical ERN numbers doesn't make a lot of cents (pun intended.) For example, the other day I took measurements on a musky blank that required 2250g to deflect the blank 1/3 of it's total length. That would have required approximately 900 pennies. Even when pre-bagged in 25s or 50s this becomes more difficult than just using heavy lead weights with their weight listed on them to the .5 gram. In the past, in order to measure some saltwater blanks I have used all the available lead plus size D batteries, and hunks of steel laying around etc to get the necessary deflection, and then added the weights of the items later.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

You can use grams to cross reference to ERN. The ERN figure doesn't care if you arrive at it with pennies or lead weights. All the same thing.

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Robert, thank you for listing that RodMaker Magazine article information. It is much appreciated.

Joe, Tom, Jim, Bill, and Geoff ..... wow, and awesome. Thank you guys very much as well. I truly appreciate your responses. I'm glad this has turned into a bit of a discussion, because I'm still a little confused.

First ... Joe. For some reason, (that reason being a gaseous discharge of the brain on my part) even though after taking my measurements I was thinking that 201 pennies weigh more than 5/8 oz. I just didn't think to convert the weight of the pennies to grams. Now that the stench of my stupidity has cleared, I can see how the IP number for the Quickline blank had such a high number.

The part I'm still confused about is this ....... I outlined the procedure I followed to get the lure weight range for the factory rod I used to compare to the Quickline blank. I kind of winged it because part 1 of the CCS link doesn't really outline said procedure. I made assumptions based on the wording of table C contained within the article. The table said for the lower weight range, which I assumed to mean the a lighter weight, I loaded the tip of the rod with pennies until the blank started to flex at 1/3 the rods length in the horizontal plane. I then used the formula supplied in C table to come up with a lure weight.

To get the upper end of the lure weight range, which I assumed to mean heavier weight, I added weight until the rod was deflected the distance equal to 1/3 of the rod's length, in the vertical plane. I then used the formula in table C to come up with a lure weight. As I said earlier, those two number were extremely close to the lure weight range stated on the rod blank.

Now here's where my confusion begins. The IP number is based on the same amount of weight, and the same amount of deflection it took to come up with the upper limit of lure weight range, . Am I doing OK so far? Sooooo .... if I convert the number of pennies to grams, that would be my IP number for the factory rod, yes?

And if the answer is yes, then I'm really confused. The reason being, The Quickline blank has a higher IP in grams number than the factory rod I checked. Yet the factory rod has a 1/4 oz. higher lure weight rating. If I were convert the weight of the pennies it took to deflect the factory rod a distance equal to 1/3 of its length in the vertical plane, I come up with 502.5 grams

That means I either checked the lure weight rating of the factory rod incorrectly, or the Quickline blank has a higher lure weight rating than is listed in Mud Hole's online catalog. Am I making sense here? If not, please forgive me. I work nights, so it's past my bed time. lol

The Quickline blank I'll be purchasing is the QLSJ 782. In Mud Hole's online catalog it has a lure weight range of 1/8 - 3/8 oz.

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking I did the procedure for checking lure weight range, wrong. But the numbers I came up with, matched those on the rod. I was actually happy and pleasantly surprised that they did !!!

I was thinking about it yesterday as I was tossing and turning trying to get to sleep, lol and I thought ....... perhaps the weight in grams it took to deflect the factory rod was less because the Quickline blank's numbers are arrived at through the use of a bare blank, and the factory rod has guides, thread, and finish on it? I could see that having a slight effect. But 50 grams? The factory rod is also 2" longer. I know it's easier to deflect a longer object. But in this case the longer object is. according to lure weight ratings, more powerful.

I don't know. As I said, hopefully I'm making sense of my confusion, and it doesn't seem as if I have a remedial mind. I have a feeling I'm either missing something as blatant as not converting the weight of the pennies to grams, or I'm completely over thinking it.

Thanks again you guys. I honestly appreciate the time you're taking to get me pointed in the right direction.

You guys rock !!!

Like I said, I'll be buying the blank regardless. Just trying to get my head wrapped around the process, and get the correct process.

I don't have time at the moment to go through your entire post but I can tell you this, any time you attempt to use the CCS to match a factory rod rating you're apt to think you're doing something wrong. Because you have no idea what system, if any, that factory used to come up with their ratings. A lot of people initially worried that they were doing something wrong because the CCS numbers didn't match the factory's numbers for a given rod. In which case, who's to say the factory's numbers arern't wrong?

Pennies are simply units of weight and were selected to make the measurements simple. No weight measurements required. But if you want to use another weight medium or convert the pennies to weight in grams that's fine.

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Mr. Baylor,
To my knowledge, you should not be deflecting the blank in the vertical access for IP measurement. The CCS deflection is done from the horizontal axis, and is done only once per blank or rod. The singular IP measurement (in cents) resulting from the CCS deflection is used to calculate the upper and lower CCS lure ratings per table C in part 1 of the CCS documentation.
I will say the the current lure ratings we have for the Quicklines were done the old fashioned way (based on currently accepted standards and/or field test data.) I have prepared a basic .xls spreadsheet that will produce the CCS lure ratings in ounces based on the IP values one enters in grams. The .xls sheet can be downloaded at the following link: [www.fishpacbay.com]
There is some sample data already in the sheet to look at. I think the table C formula works well for most light to medium freshwater powers. However, I think the upper limit factor of 1.5 may need to be increased for heavier powers as they typically can handle a larger range of lure weights. I hope this helps. Take care.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Tom, thank you for your response. Sorry about the long post. I have a tendency to do that because I'm trying to provide as much information, or as much of my thoughts as I can, so as to hopefully not miss mentioning something that may affect the answers you fine gentleman supply.

Geoff, thank you as well for our response. And yes, your response does help as I'll be downloading that spreadsheet you mentioned, some time today.

I think I may have confused you and others when I said I measured the deflection vertically. Yes, the rod is in a horizontal position when the rod is being deflected. But the deflection is measured as vertical tip travel. In the example given in the CCS lin, the tip of the rod started at 64" from the floor. When the IP measurement was taken, the tip was 30" from the floor. That's why I said in the vertical plane. Sorry about the confusion.

Anyhow.... thanks again you guys. I really truly appreciate the help everyone is providing. I'll be calling everything grams from now on, but I'll still be counting pennies to convert to grams though. That's the beauty of the system. Everyone has pennies !!! lol

And please, keep the responses coming. I think I've gotten a handle on the CCS thing. I just want to be sure.