For spinning rods there is the NGC and/or the 27x method. Is there something out there for a bait casting rod? I am building a 10' bait casting rod and I am going to use an ABU 7500CT with 20lb test fireline. I understand the static load method of guide placement but I don't know where I should place my butt guide or the rest of the reduction train or the size of the reduction train.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

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Mr. Kirkman,
Right on!

I have read Mr. Kirkman's article plenty of times and in paragraph four it states by now I should have an good idea where the choker guide goes. I don't have any idea - so what I am missing?

Kerry,

Look for your butt guide to end up in the area of 18" - 24" in front of the level wind. When I do my static placement, I start at the tip and work back one guide at a time. The butt guide ends up where it ends up. Also, keep in mind that if you have a fore grip or grip the fore grip, you don't want the line to be able to touch your hand when the rod is loaded deeply. Size the butt guide so it meets this height requirement and avoids sharp angles as the line enters the guide.

Joe

In contrast to Joe's method, I just normally always set the choker guide at 20 inche and go from there to the tip with the guides. Once in a while I have to do a bit of tweaking, but normally the 20 inch spacing works just fine.

The 20 inches is measured from the front of the reel to the ring of the choker guide.

Take care

Hi Kerry,

Good info presented. I do what others do, 18-24" area. This is a good starting point. I agree make sure the line does not score the fore grip under a heavy load or your hand. As I deflect the rod under a load I make sure that the line comes in contact with the butt guide ring.

Capt Neil Faulkner

That article doesn't mention a "choker guide," as baitcasting rods don't utilize them. So I don't know what article you're referring to.


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This brings up a question. I placed a butt guide over 30 inches from the level wind on a 7ft. 2 bass rod. No doubt it is a mistake as there is a lot of line play when you cast from the reel to the butt guide. Can you correct it by following up with another butt guide closer to 20 inches from the level wind? I used a 10 mm for the butt guide as I progressed down to five mm Fuji concepts. If I left on the 30 inch 10 mm could I use another 10 mm at 20 inches from the level wind? Is this just a deal where I need to take off the 30 inch butt guide and start over?

Correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm over complicating things ... but doesn't the distance of the butt guide from the front of the reel's line guide depend on a few things? The number one thing being the height of the guide frame as it relates to the height of the line guide of a reel when it's mounted to the rod? Or more accurately, the height of the inside diameter of the guide ring? The greater the disparity in those heights, the further the butt guide needs to be from the reel's line guide for optimum casting performance?

I know with bait casting gear it isn't as critical as it is with open face spinning gear, but it makes a difference. I know it makes a difference because I have experienced it. first hand.

As a bass fisherman, two of my favorite techniques are pitching and flipping. Both comparatively low energy casting techniques. My favorite reel for these techniques is the Shimano Castaic. That particular reel is no longer available, but during its period of availability it went through a drastic redesign. The first models were very tall reels. After the redesign they went to being a low profile reel. The higher, older model reels, perform noticeably better on rods where the butt guide is further away from the reel's line guide.

I attribute the difference to the shallower angle of the line as it enters the butt guide creating less friction. An increase in the butt guide's ring size would have the same effect as moving a smaller sized guide further from the reel. Am I wrong in my thinking?

I'm also under the impression that the I.D. of the butt guide ring plays a roll as it relates to the perpendicular movement of the reel's line guide? A wider reel where the line guide can be further from the blanks center line will either require a larger I.D. butt guide ring, or butt guide placement further from the reel's line guide to lessen the angle of the line as it enters the butt guide?

Basically it's a game of angles in both the vertical, and horizontal planes? Correct or incorrect?

If my thinking is correct, maybe I'm just being too picky. But being picky is the whole reason I've started to build my own rods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2015 10:32AM by David Baylor.

David,
You raise a good point.
However, I rather take the position, that the longer distance from the reel seat that is required for the fact mentioned basically work just fine for shorter reels using either a taller butt guide or a shorter butt guide.

i.e. I just take the position, that I really see no reason to really ever bring the butt guide closer to the reel than about 20 inches, because there is really nothing to be gained by bringing the guide closer to the reel seat.

Take care

Jim,

Tape on an additional guide and see how it works. If it feels good, wrap it on and go. If not, just remove it and stay put.

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As far as the performance of this MHX high mod rod as is, I use a K Chronarch with this rod and as you know it is low profile. As far as casting difference this rod will outdistance my 6 ft 8Loomis Mossy Back with the same 1/2 ounce lure, reel and 12 lb fluorocarbon line. It just seems that there is a lot of line movement between the reel and the butt guide. One correction, this rod is a seven foot not 7ft. 2 as I cut a couple of inches off the butt when I built it.

I appreciate your suggestion. I will play with taping a 10 and then a 12 mm butt guide closer to see if the performance improves enough to make it worth while. If not I will hold what I got..

Jim,
When you use a casting reel with a lure, the inertia of the cast lure should hold the line taunt during the cast and thus the guides should not have a very large effect if any on the casting distance. During the bulk of the cast, the rod tip is pointed straight toward the target, the reel has spooled up to speed and the line should be shooting straight off the reel with very little contact with any guide on its way out.

Be safe

Dave,

You are correct, it is a game of angles. For bass rods, the spools are so narrow these days that it is of a lot less significance than a heavy saltwater rod. To get a little food for thought, look up the Micro Maniacs or M&Ms threads as they were referred to on this site. There was one thread regarding spacing, and you will find some good info. With all on top micro builds, placing a small butt guide at 23" - 27" is about where they end up. Those that prefer larger butt guides typically ended up with them a little closer. Regardless of which size butt guide you choose for bass rods, the static test is going to land it in the right ball park. A little test casting and tweaking can be done at that point.

With rods where fore grip use is important, the line height and angles need to be considered a bit more carefully. In this case, I would be more inclined to place the butt guide and work toward the tip on the static test.

Joe

It's been a couple of days since I checked back on this thread. Joe, while building this first rod, I definitely learned that the static test has a broader application than I once thought it did. I thought it was only about guide placement between the butt guide and the tip top.

On the rod I just completed, I had planned on using a #8 as the butt guide. I say "planned on" because I ended up increasing the size to a #10 after static loading the blank to place the remainder of the guides. To keep the angle of the line as it entered the butt guide shallow, I placed the #8 butt guide at 20" from the reel. But when I put the blank under load, the line touched the rod blank between the butt guide and the reel, The 20" distance probably would have worked if I hadn't have trimmed the 6" off the butt, or if I had used a higher powered blank. Anyhow ... I moved the #8 to 18 1/2" from the reel to keep the line off the blank, but that increased the angle that the line entered the guide at. I didn't want that, so I put a #10 at the same 18 1/2" distance. Its larger I.D. brought the line back to a shallower angle as it entered the guide.

I then went with the #8 as a reduction guide, with #6 guides the remainder of the way to the tip top. So the static loading told me what size butt guide I needed, and located it for me as well. An epiphany of sorts. lol

Next up is that 6' squarebill rod you and I talked about in the past. Now I just have to shed myself of the fear of using micro guides. But thanks to you and others, I'm learning.