Now, let's talk a bit about what it is we feel in the rod, for those of us that care (just a little ribbing, Bill).

The line connects the rod to lure. How the lure moves is going to dictate what we feel. You need to keep in mind that not every strike and lure movement will be felt. Signals can be sent through the line in two ways. The first is a transverse wave, where the displacement is perpendicular to the line. These signals will never be felt. After the line enters the water and becomes dampened (couldn't resist), the water is a very viscous medium and is going to damp any transverse waves in the line quickly. Someone could grab your line and shake it wildly from side to side and you would never know. This is one reason line watching for bite detection is important. A fish can take your lure sideways without you feeling it, regardless of using the highest modulus rod with the most advanced braid, but you know it's there when the line goes off to the side. The second way is a longitudinal signal where the displacement is along the line. Some of these signals will be felt. The taps and thunks that you feel as you move the lure are sudden brief stoppages of the lure as it moves through the water. They are best described as impulses which are changes in momentum. The most obvious ones are going to have a significant portion of their impulse vector being pointed away from the rod. As you need to apply a greater force to get it going back in the same direction. Signals where the lure is pushed forward are going to feel mushy or as a sudden loss of contact with the lure because it's momentum is now bringing the lure to faster than you were moving it. This is where the differences in blank materials and construction techniques become apparent. The more sensitive the rod the smaller the impulse you feel and the more ticks you will feel drifting a lure through the same spot.

In regard to slack line techniques, the line is rarely truly slack. Gravity pulls the line down and this puts a little tension in the line and as long as you keep this tension on the line you can feel a good bit, such as that thunk when you aren't moving the rod. Bass fishermen know this sensation quite well.

Because the only signals we can feel from the line begin as longitudinal signals in the line, we have a couple ways of getting this information. Those who are blessed with large enough hands to palm a reel and keep the line on their index finger can feel the variations in line tension, which are exactly what longitudinal signals are. Unfortunately, I have smaller hands and can't do this comfortably. For those like me, we need to get as much info from the rod as we can. This is done by keeping the line perpendicular, 90 degrees, to the rod. What happens here is that as the longitudinal signals travel up the line, it makes a 90 degree turn at the tip top and the variations in tension become transverse wave pulses in the rod. It is those wave pulses that you will feel. The lighter and more responsive the rod, the sharper those signals will be. If the rod takes a long time to damp vibrations due to the amount of material used and where it is located, the signals will not be as sharp.

In the end, the best way to think about any rod build, where performance is the main goal, is to begin with the notion that the rod is most sensitive as a bare unfinished blank, and everything we do to it is going to take away some of that performance. Look at a favorite rod and ask yourself if everything that you need on a rod is there and if everything there is needed.

Joe

Bill;
There are types of rods and fishing where sensitivity may not matter . But there are also types of rods and fishing where they do, such as bass fishing and rods built for bass fishing, and in these situations it is:

IMHO
people worry about Sensitivity WAY TOO LITTLE.

Joe's last paragraph is exactly why I build rods they way I do and with graphite.
The lesion about how vibrations basically dissipate when using dissimilar materials. should be required reading for all new builders. or at least for those who want to feel what is going on at the otrher end of their lines

Joe must have been typing as I was . I was referring to the last chapter of his previous post;

"Material choices are important as well. If you want to feel information in your hand from the blank, you should try to match the properties of the blank as closely as possible. Anytime a wave moves from one medium to another, it's speed changes and because of the speed change, some of the wave will be transmitted and some reflected back. The greater the difference in the speed of the wave for the media, the greater the portion of the wave that gets reflected. The closer the speeds, the greater the portion of the wave that gets transmitted. You want as much transmitted as possible. This is why you are going to find woven graphite on Steve's handles, and my rods where feel is highly important to me. "

Joe ..... no worries sir. I took no offense to your post about using the proper word to describe something. I'm sure you know me well enough to know that I'm picky about some of the things people say on OGF. For instance, when someone calls cover, structure. Or my all time favorite " a longer rod gives an angler more leverage when fighting a fish. So I completely understand.

I definitely agree with the minimalist approach if you want the highest performing rod you can possibly build. And like Steve said, in bass fishing, sensitivity matters. Although, I think it matters more for some types of bass fishing rods, than it does for others. A frog rod or top water rod being the two examples I can think of.

You know, I was actually thinking about a few posts in this thread last night. The ones talking about handle material. Now this is just my thinking. But I don't know that rear grip material makes all that much of a difference when it comes to how much feeling it dampe ........ damps. I couldn't resist either. lol On a spinning rod I could understand something like a skeleton reel seat that uses a cork insert. Or a Tennessee handle. That's gotta kill sensitivity. But on a casting rod ..... I personally palm the reel all the time. Fingers in contact with the reel seat. Now fore grip material is a different story. I could see the carbon tube making a huge difference there.

Anyhow ..... I love talking this kind of stuff because it's something I feel I can actually contribute to, instead of being the one asking all the questions. lol

David,
In spite of the comments about a cork handle killing rod sensitivity, I have to disagree on the comment.

One of the biggest advantages of a tennessee grip using high quality cork, is that it is very light. When using a high quality rod with a cork grip - tennessee handle, I certainly have no problem catching as many or more fish that any one else in the boat.

I think that I just don't write about sensitivity, or think about sensitivity any more.

I just concentrate on using high quality blanks, as light a guide train and reel seat and grip setup as possible. I never go with any more than the very basic wrap on guides with no weight wasted on long wraps and coats and coats of finish.

The rods all fish very well and all of the rods catch a lot of fish.

I just think that the best measure of a good fishing rod - is whether it catches a lot of fish and put a lot of fish in the boat. I don't use casting distance, line handling or any other item to describe a rod. I just want a rod that lets the person holding the rod, to catch as many fish as possible.

So, rather than using terms like power, action, weight or sensitivity - I prefer to use the term = Fish Catching Ability = of the rod.

Be safe

Roger, I'm sure you'd agree that any material between the blank and your hand, is going to reduce feel? And that the harder a material, the better it will transmit vibrations?

I'm certainly not disparaging the use of cork as a grip material. It's beautiful, it's light, and it's comfortable, but it's not the best material for transmitting vibrations.

And I don't doubt that you can catch as many, or more fish with a rod using a Tennessee grip, as someone else using the most sensitive grip material possible. But that's really more about your ability and attributes as an angler, not the attributes of the rod.

As a bass angler, I know all to well the perils of falling into the belief that if I have this certain bait, or this particular rod, I'm going to catch more fish than the next guy. Can a more sensitive better performing rod help an angler catch and land more fish? Most definitely. But it's not going to catch them for him, or her.

It's the application of knowledge that catches fish. Not the rod,

So as I read this i am thinking the hardest material transmits vibrations better So where your hand holds the rod Thinking butt grip should be a graphite type weave tube with a hard arbor inside Graphite ?? Then maybe graphite shapped on the ends for a tapper onto the blank ( for looks and comfort )
Am I understanding this correctly

Bill - willierods.com

Dave,

Roger has a good point about the TN handle. The reel seat is the heaviest single component that you install on the blank. Most reel seats weigh in at about 1oz. Cork may not be the ideal material, but the weight difference is going to win in that scenario, not to mention there are some tricks involving rigid trim rings that can be used to boost sensitivity. If I could dump the seat altogether on a casting rod for something lighter and the same shape, it would be long gone. The little 5'8" spinning rod that I had at the ORBS weighed in around 2.5oz. before I wrapped the reel on, and it could have been even lighter had I done a few things differently. I think I added about one ounce total weight to the bare blank on that build.

If you want the ultimate in spinning rods pick up the back issues of RodMaker with the articles about Steve Gardner's Vibronics handles and the Hot Handle. They are the inspiration for what I do, though my spinning rods were done with off the shelf components without the blank offset in the spinning handles. One of these days, though, I'll get the nerve to do things Steve's way.

The only spinning rod I own that has a reel seat is a travel rod that I can toss behind the seat for short trips on foot. The others are split TN handles and that won't change any time soon.

Roger,

This statement says a mouthful.

"I just concentrate on using high quality blanks, as light a guide train and reel seat and grip setup as possible. I never go with any more than the very basic wrap on guides with no weight wasted on long wraps and coats and coats of finish. "

You might not think much about sensitivity now, but with these build techniques in mind, it shows that it clearly crossed your mind at some point and influenced the way you do things.

Thinking about the physical properties of the rod related to sensitivity will go a long way to getting a new rod builder thinking about the things that go into proper assembly techniques and the compromises involved in rod building.

Joe

Bill,

Not necessarily the hardest material, but the material with physical properties most similar to the blank. The rest is definitely barking up the right tree.

Joe

Thanks Joe
But
How comfortable can a graphite hard tube be to handle all day when Say bass fishing Most I would figure would want cork or eva ?? Even as a split grip handle

Now I am thinking of the poured foam grips farely hard - light - and should transmit vibrations - Yes More comfortable then a hard tube and can be shapped for comfort

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2015 08:47PM by bill boettcher.

Bill,
You have it right.
Yes, I have fished with a graphite tubular handle and I didn't care to even have the rod in my hand. It was fine that it may have worked better, but if I don't like to hold the rod, what is the point.

Up in our country, it is either very cold or very hot. For each of those cases, I much prefer to have cork in my hand, than nylon, graphite, or some other synthetic substance. Cork simply always feels just right.

As has been said many times before by folks much wiser than myself. One has to have confidence in his/her equipment.

It really does not matter what the equipment is; but if one has confidence it it, most folks end up having a better day with the equipment.

Take care

I am now thinking of the ready made cores from Riley Also maybe the 6 LB harder more sentative They will be at the BUTT of the rod So a 7' rod it may just help for ballance More testing Ua Va

Bill - willierods.com

Joe, I was the one that said the hardest material. A graphite reel seat definitely has properties more similar to the blank, than cork. And while I'm sure cork wins the battle in the weight category over a full reel seat. It doesn't win the battle in transfer of vibrations.

I have spinning rods with skeleton reel seats that use cork inserts between the sections of the reel seat. Both up locking and down locking. The down locking seat feels more sensitive than the up locking seat. My guess is it's because the down locking seat is transferring more vibration due to the fact that front portion of the reel foot is in contact with the hood and the thread tube, where as the front of the reel foot on the up locking seat is in contact with the hood, and cork. The hood is even isolated from the blank, by cork. I've also had spinning rods that had full tube graphite reel seats. The full tube seats feel much more sensitive.

I certainly don't want to seem as if I'm being argumentative. That is not my intention at all. But it seems that you're implying that just because cork is the lighter material, it's going to transfer vibrations better than graphite? Wouldn't that be like using the word dampening, when the proper word to use would be damping? <wink>

Now maybe if you gunk up the blank to reel seat connection with a multilayer masking tape arbor and a ton of epoxy. But not if the reel seat is in direct contact with the blank, and a minimal amount of epoxy in between. And what of the split reel seats with maximum blank exposure? Cork doesn't win the battle there.

All I was implying is that there are better choices than a cork reel seat, if you want maximum sensitivity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2015 09:19PM by David Baylor.

Bill,

The woven graphite makes the most comfortable grips I have. It may be the size of my hands, but the 1.05" OD tubes are perfect for me, and when the reel is wrapped on with thread and finish, It's great. The woven graphite casting grips I have a made from the tapered woven graphite fore grips from Batson, and they fit my hand perfectly.

I will say that when temps are over 90 and the graphite handles are laying on the deck for long periods, they get hot, but a little water on the hand cools them down quickly. Temps below 90 or a bit of cloud cover and it's a nonissue for me.

The EVA grips that I turned last week for a new crankbait rod are shaped with the same taper as the Batson woven graphite, and it was the first time I grabbed an EVA handle and thought, "Yep, that feels just right." The blank on that rod is an old Lamiglas 6702, and I'm looking forward to fishing it. I had a set of sleeved grips ready to go, but sanded them too soon and messed them up because the finish hadn't cured enough. I listened to my instincts and decided to give the EVA a go because I wasn't sure how the black and gray wood grain pattern would look on the honey colored blank. After fitting them up, I decided they looked pretty good, and felt right, so they ended up on the rod. It's going to be a good looking modern twist on a classic blank when its done.

I have sleeved rods in the hands of my family members, but the Lami blank is the first I've built for myself in a couple years. The sleeved grips are absolutely fantastic because the shape can be customized.

Joe

Thanks Joe Gives me a lot to think about

Bill - willierods.com

Dave,

No worries, I know where you are coming from, and this is one place where things go counter to your intuition. Thinking in terms of material choice only is not seeing the forrest for the trees. There is a bigger picture to be concerned with. There is enough weight (mass or inertia would be better and best technical terms, but we are in a more colloquial environment) difference between the TN handle and the reel seat that the weight difference alone makes up for the difference in materials. When you are talking about saving more than a half ounce from a less than 3 ounce build, by swapping the reel seat for a TN handle, it's a significant difference. Gluing a couple poker chips into the grip under the reel feet will give you material with closer properties to the blank that will transmit signals to your hand. I still prefer graphite, but cork can be very effective in a TN handle.

The important thing to keep in mind that where mass is added to the blank (i.e. guide train choice) is going to have the largest effect on the performance, followed by the amount of mass added, and then by the choices of materials. When the build weights on the same blank are comparable, the materials with closer properties are going to win, and this is where the sleeved grips can be your best friend.

Joe

All this talk of the comfort of the handle material???? Makes me think half y'all hold your pole by the handle while fishing. I'm just a simple old southern boy but I tend to have my hand around the reel seat, not the handle. If the fish is big enough, then on the foregrip after he is hooked. In any case I don't find the graphite handle uncomfortable in any way....nor do I find it slick. I kinda like the fact that it doesn't absorb all the fish slime/blood/guts:)

Roger, for me "fish catching ability" is about what happens "after" the fish is hooked. I always felt the "perfect fight" is when I have one wrap of line left on the spool after the inital run:)

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russ,

What's a fore grip? :) I do spend all of my time with my hand on a grip. Spinning rods are split TN handles with the reel positioned so my thumb and index finger contact the blank in front of the grip with the reel stem between my middle and ring fingers and never leaves that position. With casting rods, I grip the rod with two fingers in front of the trigger and the tapered grip in my palm. Casting, retrieving, and fighting fish is done from the same position. Many bass fishermen will hold the reel in their palm with two fingers under the reel seat, and two above with the line running across the top of the index finger. My hands just aren't big enough to do this comfortably, so I've settled on a way that works well for me.

If I were after larger saltwater fish, my needs and preferences may change a bit, but for everything from panfish to pike in the freshwater, the layouts are the same. The only differences are the length, action, and power of the rods. I have 2 preferred grip lengths, 7.75" from the stem/trigger for short rods, and 9.75" from the stem/trigger for 6'6"+ rods.

Joe

Russ, like you, on bait casting gear I palm my reel, but you can't palm the reel on a spinning reel during a retrieve, so the comfort of the material used for the handle has to be considered. Not just the material, but the size and the properties of the material. Too small and it causes discomfort holding the material. Too slick and it could cause you to grip it tighter, which if it isn't immediately uncomfortable, it will lead to discomfort eventually.

In a two handed casting situation the comfort of the handle comes into play. And it also comes into play when fighting a fish. Especially a big fish, or a fish that you have to wrench out of heavy cover. Anytime the handle comes in contact with a body part, comfort is something that needs to be considered. Yes?