I am a bit confused. I understand that action refers to where the rod flexes when casting. i.e. fast action rods flex the first 1/3 or less of the rod. I also understand that power has to do with what the rod will physically handle. What I am having difficulty understanding rod sensitivity. Is a fast action rod more sensitive than a medium action because it flexes more readily at the tip? When discussing the tip as being "soft" or "stiff" what is generally meant? How does power factor into all of this? Do two rods which have the same power but different actions behave differently?

I know that when I fish personally, I like to fish lighter line weights on medium action rods because I feel that the extra flex in he rod protects the light line, where a faster tip creates a harder hook set and the potential to break the line. Is this all my imagination? Is there some reading anyone would recommend so I can get a better understanding? How is all this information used when selecting rod blanks with specific purposes? Thanks for the help.

Tight Lines,
Cory

Cory,

For interesting reading on sensitivity, search for posts from all dates by Emory Harry. There will be enough reading to keep you busy for a while.

When you speak of sensitivity, are you talking about what the rod transmits to your hand or something else? That will help guide the discussion. A stiffer rod of the same weight will transmit more to the hand, i.e. if you have a fast action rod with the same weight as a moderate action rod, the fast action rod will be more sensitive.

A stiff tip will be harder to flex than a soft tip. When you take a rod and lay your hand on the tip to flex it, you will need to physically apply more force to a stiff tip than a soft tip.

Generally as power goes up, so does the tip stiffness. This is a bit extreme, but a tip designed for a bass rod is not going to work well on an offshore tuna rod. Action plays a roll as well, generally when comparing rods of the same power, the faster the action, the softer the tip. For example, compare a fast action M power, fast action ML power, and an extra fast action M power blank from the same line of rods. The extra fast action rod is going to have a tip that feels soft like the ML blank, but have the power of the M blank in the butt.

A moderate action rod is going to load over a longer time on the hook set than a fast or extra fast action rod. Because of this there will be a smaller impulse on the line from the moderate action rod. Impulse is calculated as the average force applied times the time over which the force is applied, or by finding the area under the force vs. time graph. When comparing the F vs. t graphs of a moderate action rod with a fast action rod (of the same or similar power) the graph for the moderate action rod will have a lower maximum force but have the load and unload cycle spread over a longer time. The fast action rod will have a higher maximum force and the load and unload cycle spread over a shorter time.

It's the same reason that braided line with a much higher breaking strength is easier to break with a sharp pull than mono. The braid doesn't stretch nearly as much, so it experiences very high forces for a short period of time. The mono stretches more extending the time the force is applied allowing the line to absorb the shock.

Hope this helps a bit. I'll be out of town today but check back tonight.

Joe

Action is where the rod initially flexes. Even a fast action rod will flex into the handle area if you apply enough load to it.

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The most sensitive fishing set-up would be to hand line with a line which has no stretch at all. Stretchy line transmits less sense of touch. The more a rod weighs, the better it dampens vibrations, and the more easily it flexes the less it transmits sense of touch. A strand of uncooked spaghetti transmits more sense of touch than a cooked strand of spaghetti.

A better way to say that might be to say that for any given stiffness the lighter rod will be more sensitive, and that for any given weight, the stiffer rod will be more sensitive.

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Cory,
One thing that a lot of folks don't necessarily think about when they use the word sensitivity, is the action of the tip.

For a lot of very light biting fish, many folks and their rods find it very difficult to sense the bite.

But, for many of those same folks who use a very soft tipped rod, watch the rod, and use the rod's visual movement to detect the bite of the fish.

So, some folks use the word sensitive to describe a rod that has a light tip that acts as a visual antenna to transmit the actions of the fish to the person holding the rod.

I suspect that most folks use a combination of both line, rod and grip feel through their hands, as well as a visual cue from watching the tip of the rod for a bite.

In particular, when folks run trolling rods that are in rod holders, or when folks use down rigger rods that are in rod holders, their cue to the bite is the visual action of the rod.

Also, there are lots of fishing styles that basically fish with a slack line. With a slack line, there will be virtually no sensation transmitted through the line back to the rod holder, simply because all of the line vibrations get absorbed and damped out, before these vibrations are ever transmitted to the rod or its holder. So, for folks who fish with this style fishing, are very much line watchers. i.e. they will be looking for an unusual movement of the line as it drifts or lays on the water or in the current.

I rather suspect that for most folks sensitivity of a rod for fishing is really a composite of all of the above factors.

I think that about the best advice that one can get with respect to sensitivity, is to fish with as many different rods as possible and develop an understanding how you perceive the bite of a fish when working with different rods, fishing with different styles of fishing and then; based on your own experience, began to winnow down the rods to the few that work really well for you for a given style of fishing.

You might find that you want a long stiff, powerful rod for one style, but want a short, soft noodle rod for another style, or one of the many different rods in between.

There is the classic "physics based" direction of sensitivity, and then there is the feeling and understanding by a particular individual for their fishing style, what determines a sensitive rod. As I said earlier, your definition of sensitive, may be completely different than the standard "physics based definition" but that is just fine.

The important thing to remember, is your own definition of what makes a sensitive rod, for your particular fishing style. It may be hard, or soft, long or short, slow or ultra fast action. It is all in the holder of the rod, and his/her likes and dislikes that make the rod work for that particular individual and that particular persons fishing style, wishes and needs.

The right rod for a given type fishing, might be very insensitive according to the classical definition, but still be a great and wonderful rod that catches boat loads of fish.

Good luck

Cory, stay tuned. This is kinda like the early chapters of the book of Genesis....and we got a long way to go to Revelations

If I define sensitivity as the ability to feel a fish on the end of the line (forgetting temporarily the sight signals) then I am convinced the fster the action the more sensitive the rod will be. That may fall apart when comparing rods of very different powers, but with rods of the roughly same power rating, the faster the more sensitive. Last fall I was fishing with a friend and I was using a fast action 7 foot spin rod, fishing drop shot in shallow water, when I started hitting smallies with a drop shot rig. To allow my friend to join the action I gave him my rod while I set up another rod with drop shot. The other rod was a 7 foot popping action rod I had there, a rod with a slower action and a little less power. I started using that rod and found I had a lot more trouble feeling the bites. With cranks on slow action crankbait rods with lipless cranks the strike often feels like a slow loading of the rod with very little sensation of feeling the strike.

It helps me when evaluating the physics of issues to take the variable being discussed to extremes, let the variable go to zero and see what I would have, let it go to infinity and see what I would have. In this case a similar comparison would be to consider a 9 foot fast action salmon spinning rod to a 9 foot 9 wt fly rod with a traditional action. With which do you think you would most easily feel a fish? I believe the spin rod, clearly.

Relative to sensitivity with varying power, I think the more powerful the more sensitive. To me this is logically less clear, though, than action. Which would be more sensitve under the above definition, a light power drop shot x-fast action or a heavy power mag bass action? Probably the heavy even though it would be heavier than the drop shot?

Material is a big player, too. I have an old Ugly Stick that weighs a little over 5 oz and a mag bass late model graphite rod that weighs very close to the same, and they are a world apart for sensitivity.

Good question, good discussion.

One of my favorite topics. As Roger points out we might not all be talking about the same thing.

For most of my life I have fished salt water. For a variety of reasons (okay money:) I am now fishing mostly in a gin clear fresh water lake. It is very interesting to watch a fish take an offering and understand that you couldn't detect it by feel alone.

In a nutshell, the lighest and stiffest blank wins. One other important point....as you cast you want the rod to load.....at the end of the cast, as the tip accelerates forward, you'd like it to stop as the rod becomes straight. Any extra back and forth isn't good.

Also find it interesting that many want to look at the blank yet continue to use a handle material like cork which is known to deaden things.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

This is great information guys. Thanks. I will difinately read through older post as well. Still tuned in.

Tight Lines,
Cory

Cory, as has already been mentioned, a faster action rod is more sensitive than one with a slower action, largely due to the dampening action of rod flex. The longer the area of flex, the more dampening action there is. Take for example an extra fast action rod, versus a fast action rod. An extra fast action rod isn't more sensitive than a fast action rod because the tip flexes more readily. It's more sensitive because the length of flex is shorter.

Your question, do two rods of the same power but with different actions behave differently? Most definitely. For me, the easiest to compare would be from a bass fishing perspective, and that would be a fast action, medium heavy power rod, and a moderate action, medium heavy power rod. The fast action medium heavy power rod, is a jig, worm, spinnerbait rod. A moderate action, medium heavy power rod would be a crankbait rod. Two rods with the same power rating, but completely different actions, and completely different lure types. Single hook baits, versus multiple hook baits. Now I will say that there has been a trend in the bass fishing world to start building slower action rods for some single hook applications, but it's more to absorb the shock of a powerful hook set, with the use of heavy braided line.

As Joe alluded to earlier ... braided line is actually easier to break than its comparable sized nylon, co polymer, or fluorocarbon counterparts. And it's all due to braided lines lack of stretch. Especially on a hook set. You'd be surprised how many anglers simply won't believe that.

Also concerning how two different actions behave. A fast action rod will cast light baits better than a slower action rod. A fast action rod is easier to cast more accurately as well.

Your thoughts that a slower action rod is better at protecting light line, is spot on. The more a rod flexes, the more power it absorbs. That's why slower action rods are so good at keeping fish caught on treble hooked baits, buttoned up. They absorb some of the power of the fish and make it less likely that treble hooks pull out. Rod length promotes flex as well. The longer an object is, the easier it is to deflect. The more deflection, the more power absorbed, and the better light line is protected. Any weigh line for that matter.

Since we're kind of on the topic of line ... the type of line being used is also something I think needs to be considered. Different types of line, have different characteristics. For instance, let's say you wanted to build a rod for fishing a fast moving rattle trap style bait. If your line of choice is a no stretch braided line, you're going to want a rod with a slower action or a less powerful blank to compensate for the lack of stretch versus a stretchy nylon mono filament line. If you're using a stretchy nylon mono filament line for a Texas rigged worm, you're going to need a faster action and a more powerful blank, Again, to compensate for the amount of stretch, or lack of stretch of each individual line type.

As far as how all the information that has been posted thus far can be used in selecting a blank to build on. It opens a lot of possibilities for a rod builder. For instance, I just completed my first build. A jerkbait rod for bass fishing. I wanted a fast action rod, because a faster action rod is better for imparting the sudden darting action that is one of the triggering aspects of a jerkbait. I also wanted a rod with a sensitive tip to feel the subtle tick of a strike during the pause of a suspending jerkbait. But since jerkbaits are treble hooked baits, I wanted a rod that had some flex into the mid section of the blank that would absorb some of the power once I had a fished hooked up, so I went with a lighter powered blank to gain the flex into the mid section of the blank I was looking for. I didn't need the power to drive a heavy wired hook home on a hook set, and I don't need the power to pull a fish out of heavy cover. It's also going to make a dynamite little top water popper and walking bait rod.

Finally, I'd suggest you search back through past threads concerning what the affects of trimming the length of a blank has. While you'll find responses that may advise against it, you'll find responses that will open even more possibilities in blank selection.

Just to clarify, the word everyone is looking for here is "damping," not "dampening." The latter means to "make wet."

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Cory;
If you are looking to build sensitive rods meaning (Being able to FEEL the bite, feel what is going on at the other end of the line, feel the grass, feel the rocks, hard bottoms verses soft bottoms and so on.) you want to study more then just the sensitiveness of the blank.

As Mr. Brunt so correctly Stated;
"Also find it interesting that many want to look at the blank yet continue to use a handle material like cork which is known to deaden things."

You can do more to kill the feel of a blank by method construction and the materials you use to build to it then anything else.
I have handled some rods that I know the builder use first class sensitive blanks to build, and yet they felt like slugs with little of the original sensitivity left.

dampening
Also found in: Legal, Wikipedia.
damp·en  (d?m?p?n)
v. damp·ened, damp·en·ing, damp·ens
v.tr.
1. To make damp.
2. To deaden, restrain, or depress: "trade moves ... aimed at dampening protectionist pressures in Congress" (Christian Science Monitor).
3. To soundproof.

The correct word here is "damping."

damp·ing/?dampiNG/
noun
a decrease in the amplitude of an oscillation as a result of energy being drained from the system to overcome frictional or other resistive forces.

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I have to agree with Tom in that my choice of words was incorrect. In physics, which is what is being applied in the case of rod blank performance. Damping is the correct word. I appreciate the correction.

From a physicist, the correct term is damping.

In a colloquial setting many will use dampen and damp interchangeably because they can by synonyms when describing nonphysical systems. It appears that misuse over the years has found its way to the dictionary, much the same way that words used commonly like ain't find their way into the dictionary. If you are doing any type of formal writing and use dampening as opposed to damping in the context of an oscillating system, such as a fishing rod, your editors and peer reviewers are not likely to take your work seriously.

Joe

I would like to say thank you everyone. This is a very informative thread on understanding what a person needs to think ahead of to get the most out of your rod blank.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2015 04:40PM by mike quinn.

IMHO

people worry about Senitivity WAY TOO MUCH

If you need to know if a blank will be able to cast a lure weight ( more important to me ) then look for line and lure weight Then come here and ask when you have a list of several blanks
The way blanks are made now they most are light weight and usually fast ( which I like ) compared to moderate which I consider MUSH

I think you are over thinking this Could just be me I used to worry about everything Found out Not To

Bill - willierods.com

Dave, as I'm sure you know, I meant no offense with my comment, though it did come across a bit terse.

When physics terms are brought up, it's important to make sure we use them properly. There are times in rod building discussions when terms get used with colloquial definitions that mean something altogether different that the point someone is trying to express. Being able to read, understand, and use technical physics terms is one of the things I really try to get my non-science majors to take away from my courses.

Now back on topic with things that can affect a rods performance.

Steve makes a very good point that tends to get glossed over dealing with construction techniques. Two builders can start with the same exact set of materials, same shape and material grips, same guide set, same reel seat, same arbors, same guides, same finish, same thread, etc. One rod can come out great, the other like a slug (Steve's words). What is the difference? The construction techniques.

Some basic tutorials I've read over the years promote some poor construction techniques that can affect the performance of the rod. Epoxy, whether finish or adhesive is the bane of my existence in rod building. They are necessary evils. I've found that too much of either can effect the rod in ways that I can feel. So, I try to keep epoxy to a minimum. When I slide a handle component into place, I make sure to remove excess adhesive before the final seating. The end user can't see it, but it adds weight, and consists of a material that is going to adversely affect the performance of the rod. I make sure that everything I add to the rod fits snug to keep the glue joints to a minimum. In my opinion, winding checks are used to hide flaws, and if you find one on one of my personal builds, that is exactly why it is there. It is either hiding a place where the grip chunked out while reaming or is covering a foam arbor used to fill the gap between the grip material and the blank.

When working on a cheap factory rod that I stripped and rebuilt to show how a minimalist approach can change the way a rod performs, I coated a couple sections of the blank with a couple sections of thread wraps to cover the scraped up blank finis from stripping the rod. After I finished the thread wraps, I was disappointed in the effect it had on the way the rod felt. It's one of those things that someone may not notice when handling the finished rod, but having felt the rod before the finish and after, there was a noticeable difference. This is why I try to keep thread wraps and decals under control on my personal rods.

I appreciate rod art as much as anyone, but when I'm building a rod for performance the amount of epoxy used and where it is applied matters to me.

Material choices are important as well. If you want to feel information in your hand from the blank, you should try to match the properties of the blank as closely as possible. Anytime a wave moves from one medium to another, it's speed changes and because of the speed change, some of the wave will be transmitted and some reflected back. The greater the difference in the speed of the wave for the media, the greater the portion of the wave that gets reflected. The closer the speeds, the greater the portion of the wave that gets transmitted. You want as much transmitted as possible. This is why you are going to find woven graphite on Steve's handles, and my rods where feel is highly important to me.

Gotta go, more thoughts later when I get a chance.