Previously a thread addressed filing of guide feet and any adverse effects.

For me, the background pieces came together one at a time.

Some time ago an acquaintance and I discussed the polishing of stainless steel, metal migration, and the filling of minute voids.

At a later date, Fuji shifted from making the CMNAG guides (chrome plated) to MNAG guides (polished).
Although I have not had problems with Fuji guides (about 1980 to today) I shifted from using BMNAG, BLNAG, CMNAG & CLNAG guides to MNAG & LNAG guides.

Here is an article from a layman's point of view that addresses polishing stainless steel, type of stainless steel, and corrosion.
It was found when doing a google search on metal migration when polishing stainless steel
[astro.temple.edu]

Additional Info about polishing can be found on youtube. It is long, but you will find the necessary facts included.
Buffing Basics
[www.youtube.com]

A few things to consider:
Destruction of the surface area
Excess heat that destroys the nickle composition in the stainless steel
The use of a proper sealant

Hope this helps,
Don

Don Becker

Good article to make the point of how complex the issue of guide corrosion is, specifically as it relates to corrosion within a confined , closed volume. What it doesn't tell me is if the grinding of guide feet affects guide corrosion to a significant degree when enclosed in a solid epoxy encapsulation. I don't see how it could, given that epoxy encapsulation of electronic devices is the "go-to" method of ensuring that they are not damaged by moisture.

I couldn't devote 46 minutes to the video, ( "internet attention span,"). I expect the video would tell us that anything that affects the surface, even of a solid, non-plated, material, could affect corrosion resistance.

So where do we go from here? I go back to personal observations, and those of knowledgeable rod builders, of the performance of different guides and guide materials in the environments that we build for. These observations lead me to titanium as the best option for salt environments, SS316 next, and SS304 next. I know that some grades of SS304 are not that good for salt environments based on the performance of keepers and cheaper guides (which are most likely SS304). If I want a bullet-proof keeper, I'll use a REC snake guide, or if I'm willing to gamble, a SS316 polished keeper. Based on guide maker corrosion testing and personal experience, I'll go with polished SS316 for guides when I'm building for salt.

But as one of the builders mentioned before, washing your equipment carefully right after use will probably result in any SS material performing adequately.

Probably two years ago there was a long thread here on corrosion and stainless steel. At the time, Am Tack was touting 316 Stainless as a feature that made their guides much better than the 304 stainless used in Fuji guides. My research, as well as my discussions with Fuji lead to the conclusion that a highly polished 304 with smooth turns and no crevices or "pinch" spots (standard Fuji quality), is equally if not more corrosion resistant than 316. Don's article supports those findings 100%.

A "rough" surface on stainless interrupts the "vapor barrier" that resists corrosion (it's why polish is so important in this discussion). Grinding feet is an open invitation to corrosion but Michael is right that the foot is encapsulated. The area where the wrap, finish and frame base come together is a much better spot for corrosion - there's a sharp bend in the metal, moisture from water on the guide ring, finish coming away from the foot or blank or both (maybe microscopic, but there)...lots of stuff. Stainless doesn't corrode orange (if it does you have introduced iron somehow) it pits microscopically - TINY HOLES ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE METAL. Maybe a little green oxidation...and then one day it just snaps off. With proper care this may be many years down the road, but it is usually what ultimately spells the end of a stainless frame.

My recommendation? By the time I clean the boat, clean the fish, clean the ice chest, clean the knives, clean the bowls, bag the fish, freeze the fish, rinse the truck, throw out the trash and spray down the reels I am NOT LIKELY TO SIT DOWN WITH A TOOTHBRUSH AND SOME WARM SOAPY WATER AND SCRUB 80 GUIDES ON 10 RODS BEFORE DINNER. Go with Titanium. HA!

thanks, Jim. I was hoping we would get some comments from you and other guide companies. Insight that adds to our understanding of the issue.

Jim

You don't have a mate to help with all this stuff ?? LOL

Bill - willierods.com

If we can put some of the issues/facts together.

1. SS316 is less corrosion resistant in a harsh environment (?)
2. SS304 better withstands high stress situations
As mentioned, a better quality guide may be one that is a polished SS304 and has sweeping curves to accommodate the flexing of the guide. If we observe the legs of the Fuji MN/LN guides, it appears they allow for the guides required flexing.

3. A rough surface invites corrosion.

4. Stainless doesn't corrode orange.
It may have been mentioned in the youtube video, tools used to shape stainless steel can cause rust to occur. This is due to the fact that small bits of iron/carbon may be left in the stainless steel.

5. Guide corrosion when enclosed in a solid epoxy encapsulation.
It is doubtful that the epoxy encapsulation is solid. I have seem many guide foot ends either breaking through the thread or, as per Jim mentions "The area where the wrap, finish and frame base come together is a much better spot for corrosion." We have two areas where seepage is possible. When you couple this with loose wraps, the use of CP, and ground guide feet, you will have a higher probability for corrosion.

My practice has been:
Straighten the guide foot and legs
Grind the feet on guides larger than size 12.
1. Use a fine grinding wheel
2. Mount the wheel in my drill press and run at low speed to minimize heat
3. Grind the least amount possible
4. Wrap a dowel with fine emery and remove any burr from the bottom of the guide foot
Use a nylon or NCP thread
1. Make sure the thread is packed and snug as it goes up the foot ramp.
Apply epoxy rapidly to ensure complete saturation of the epoxy into the thread, tunnels and around the guide foot.

What can I do to improve the outcomes?
Buy a small combination disk-belt sander and appropriate materials to better close or polish any grinding
Look into trying one of the sealants that were recommended in the video.

COMMENTS?

Don

Don Becker

I agree with your issues but am not as confident of your "facts." Just one comment on what I see as the futility of extrapolating from what we've seen that one grade of SS is better than the other, especially the conclusion that SS316 is "less corrosion resistant in a corrosive environment." There just too many variables in the SS grades, surface treatment, forming, welding/soldering, to allow a meaningful statement of either type of SS's surperiority. If anything, I would argue that all else being equal the SS that has the MO in it specifically aimed at improving corrosion performance in a salt environment would have the edge.

I also notice that the mechanical properties (yield strength, tensile strength, % elongation) of both types are stated in most sources as being identical.

I hadn't given this much thought but; if after grinding or filing the guide feet, what about polishing them on a buffing wheel with SS polishing compound? I polish the cutting edges on all of my knives and other cutting tools and they come out with a extra smooth mirror finish.

I hadn't given this much thought but; if after grinding or filing the guide feet, what about polishing them on a buffing wheel with SS polishing compound? I polish the cutting edges on all of my knives and other cutting tools and they come out with a extra smooth mirror finish.

Michael I think you're right. I never claimed 304 was superior, only that polish is critically important in the formula and that highly polished 304 will hold it's own against 316, and depending on the quality of finish, 304 can actually provide better protection. To me the biggest take away here is understanding the nature of stainless corrosion and the fact that orange is an indication of iron being introduced at some point in the process either by a file or any other grinding or sanding method that can leave small microscopic grains of iron embedded in the stainless. The second part is understanding the vapor barrier concept. Its actually a GAS that makes stainless...stainless - and that gas is very dependent on the smoothness of the surface it forms against. Third, I suppose, is the fact that you can run but you can't hide. Stainless will pit and weaken over time when exposed to salt water. You can postpone this with good maintenance, but you're not going to stop it except maybe on a perfectly flat or cylindrical surface where cleaning is complete.

From the article:
" Also, type 304 is less brittle and preferred where there are shock loads"

If both SS316 and SS304 are similar in corrosion, wouldn't the one more subject to the development <of> stress cracks be the inferior product?

Jim, I apologize for inferring it was your statement. That part was poorly written.

Frank,
The video does point out that polishing does not last indefinitely and needs to be repeated or sealed.
Polishing the guide feet should help, but it needs to go further. The guide feet need to be properly wrapped.
I used to wax my guides with Rejex at the end of the season. It <is> likely that the wax sealed the epoxy to guide leg junction. I have gotten lazy and now apply the wax every couple of years.
Obviously, washing will be beneficial to the exposed metal, but I do not understand how it <will> remove sea water that has seeped into areas around the guide foot.

Don Becker



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2015 03:47PM by Donald Becker.

The article addressed really isn't a rigorous treatment of the relative impact properties of 304 vs 316. Differences could be affected by the degree of cold work, stress risers, etc, and even if one could be considered, all else being equal, somewhat better than the other, is the difference significant to fishing rod guides? The only difference between them is a little MO which was added to make 304 into 316 and better for corrosion, under some conditions, all else being equal, than the 304. As some have mentioned, all else is not always equal.

This is taking on the life of a metallurgy course without the professor and books. But the issue which this seems to have become, of which alloy is better for fishing guides, is so much more complex than the comparative metallurgies and test properties of standard test specimens under lab conditions. Comparing characteristics from boat building or safe building or knife building or sink building or whatever may not relate to fishing rod guides directly. I'm going to leave it to our trusty guide manufacturers to continue to provide me with serviceable guides that work well at a decent price, and in a few days, go back to fishing.

I'm going to grind guide feet as little as possible, as Don has concluded, and encapsulate them as best I can, trying the method that Jim has provided. As in the past, I know they will work just fine. My guides will be chosen for mostly for their geometry and not for the type of stainless. When building specifically for salt, I'll go titaniums built by the manufacturers I've grown to trust for titaniums.

This has been fun for me in that I got refreshed in my metallurgy, which I haven't dealt directly with in many years, and I had totally forgotten that SS gets its stainless characteristic from a self-healing chromium oxide film which requires oxygen to provide the self healing. I don't think that cromium oxide is a "vapor", but I'm not going to argue the point. There is a barrier formed from the metal and oxygen and if it is damaged, more oxygen is required to rebuild it. Similar in principal to the anodizing of aluminum.

I like to "back to fishing" part. Think I'll go too. It's TIME!!!!

For saltwater use Ti guides

All the rest of a lot of what was said -- Went right over my head - Yes go back to fishing

Bill - willierods.com

For saltwater use Ti guides if you build for some one and they don't want Ti guides then come back and want you to replace ---- charge them along with I told You So

All the rest of a lot of what was said -- Went right over my head - Yes go back to fishing

Bill - willierods.com

Hi Frank,

I was rushed in writing the previous message and needed to make clerical corrections (<>).
My responses to you need clarification.

The video does point out that polishing does not last indefinitely and needs to be repeated or sealed.
This is in the last part of their video and it plugs their treatment. Basically they said that product X would last for about one year, while their product Y lasts longer.
I did try to contact their tech support section, but the line was always busy. I then called their retail section and explained the issue to a fellow fisherman. He recommended a product called Sharkbite.

Sharkbite does seem to be a viable method to seal the guide feet. It is a watery substance and dipping the guide feet was recommended. If the guide feet were buffed with a wax based compound, they would require cleaning with lacquer thinner.

Polishing the guide feet and sealing should help, but it needs to go further. The guide feet need to be properly wrapped.

I used to wax my guides with Rejex at the end of the season. It <is> likely that the wax sealed the epoxy to guide leg junction. I have gotten lazy and now apply the wax every couple of years.
I should have said that I wax my fishing rods at the end of the season. This includes the blank, guides, and guide wraps.

Don Becker

Frank Balas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hadn't given this much thought but; if after grinding or filing the guide feet, what about
> polishing them on a buffing wheel with SS polishing compound?

From the article:

"When polishing, regular steel tools (such as a wire brushes) should be avoided, as they will force flakes of steel into the surface, where they will rust. The emery cloth wheels are fine for polishing stainless steel. Special stainless steel wire brushes are available for this purpose, also."

The above may be less messy than using compounds.

Don

Don Becker

With all this nowledge and what seems time
How much do you charge to prep your guides ???

Bill - willierods.com

Personally, I think there is much ado about nothing here!! I have never had a guide foot rust under the wrap. I have seen some corrosion at the weld point of the ring and frame on salt water rods that were not rinsed well with fresh water, but that is generally preventable also. Covered with thread, CP, and a high quality rod finish, you should never have a problem with the guide foot.

It seems that we occasionally have people asking about the white in the finish. CP could certainly be a contributing factor.

Bill,
I take it that you are addressing me.

Does it take more time? No.

Would a person rather straighten the guide feet or wrap them on a little crooked.
I have always found it easier to wrap guides that properly fit to the blank.

On a 14' surf rods with 8 guides and a tiptop, how many guides would someone grind?
I would do the minimum amount on the four largest. and check for burrs on the bottom of all.
I use a fine grit grinding wheel. About a 180 grit sand paper is listed as being fine enough to polish stainless steel.
The grinding wheel that I use produces a very smooth finish. It would not be called a gloss finish.

What about wrapping the guides? Is a tensioner used?
Try using the model 5 digital units. They are both fast, accurate, usually eliminate metallic thread damage, and most people have a set of two.

Is CP being used? That is really a time consuming item.

Don Becker