Im doing a build on a 7MH, and was wondering if the rule of "one guide for every foot of rod length" applies to micro guides as well. I'll be using one double footed 7, then a single footed 6, then 5's the rest of the way.

Andrew,
It seems that for micro guides, the rule of thumb is more line one guide for every 6 inches.

It really depends on how short your micro guides are, and whether you are concerned about the line passing under the rod when you fight a fish or not.

Good luck

With 5s you could use 9 guides total. With size 3 or 4 I sometimes use 10 or more.

_________________________________________
"Angling is extremely time consuming.
That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

Andrew;
For the rod you are building It really will not matter how micro guides space out. Because you are not using any.
With the set up you are doing the standard thought process will work

When you do a rod with micro guides. I add one and some times two extra guides.

With all respect to Roger I would not count one guide for every 6 inches of blank! 14 guides on a 7 ft rod or that ratio on any blank,
is absolutely over kill!

Steve,
When you work with micro guides, do you care if the line rubs or goes under the loaded blank when fighting a fish?

The reason that I ask the question is that because the micro guides are so small and they lie so close to the blank that on a straight rod, the line is only an 1/8th to a 1/4 inch above the rod. As soon as the rod is loaded at all, for a standard guide spacing the line will be rubbing, touching or will be below the blank.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Which raises the question - why use "micros" (which I don't think you are actually using)? Especially on a medium heavy blank. I would think blank loading paramount here since heavier strain is anticipated, so higher guides would be used to keep the line off the blank, especially braid. If you are talking spinning, it's not as critical, but for casting rub is an issue. An important function of guides is to distribute load throughout the blank - with greatest concern at the tip where bend is usually more pronounced. I always keep line off the blank and in doing so spacing distributes load evenly - whatever the bend profile.

If casting What about a spiral wrap

Bill - willierods.com

Hello,

I have always been curious about the rationale behind letting the line touch the blank or not. If the area where the blank bends the most takes the greatest amount of stress, would it then follow that the number of guides and their spacing is more important than their height or if the line touches the blank, since distance between guides is what increases or decreases stress on the blank?

-chad

Unless you are chasing fish that will make sustained runs at high speed where heat dissipation becomes a serious concern, then allowing the line to touch the blank is just fine, i.e., if for some reason I need to build an offshore big game rod, the line will not touch the blank, and my choice of guides is going to be radically different than on a freshwater rod. The guides would also be substantially larger.

The adage of keeping the line off the blank was a simple way of being sure that you had an adequate stress distribution with traditional sized guides. In fact, you could often get by with fewer guides than a typical static test would indicate. I have an old 6'6" factory rod with 5 guides and a tip top, which is at least 3 to 4 guides fewer than I would use with either standard sized guides or micro guides. The rod has never blown up, but it certainly leaves a bit to be desired in its performance. At the extreme, I believe I've read about but never seen in person old surf rods with only 2 or 3 guides. I bet those things are a sight to see when loaded up and fighting a fish.

As far as laying out a guide train with micros, you can use as many or as few guides as you like. If you want to static test the blank with traditional sized guides and then replace them with micros, the load will be distributed just the same. The downside is the line path isn't going to look great. That's why many use an extra couple of guides with micros. They then space the guides so the line either just touches the blank or keeps from falling below the blank on the static test.

The extra guides serve a couple purposes. One, they allow for slightly more line to be moved on the hookset. Two, they keep the line path aesthetically pleasing. Three, the smaller size of the guides allow you to obtain both 1 and 2 with a guide train that is lighter than one laid out with larger guides resulting in a lighter more responsive rod.

bull boettcher Wrote:
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> If casting What about a spiral wrap
I considered a spiral wrap, but it is kind of odd looking. Could I utilize less guides? How many would I use?

Yes very odd looking -- But works very well

The guides under the rod With a static test like a spinning rod will tell you how many No worry about line rubbing the blank as long as the first three are set correctly
It also depends on How you fish it Some don't like the angle of the guides on certain types of fishing ???
There is a lot of info with the Search on setting it up I would set them as a spinning rod guide spacing Then turn the butt and one or two more and static test Under pressure the line lets you know where to put the guides
Also no blank twist with all the guides at the 180 as a spinning rod And easier to fish with You don't have to fight the rod to keep the reel upright
Set the guides up and with a guides on top run line to a container and see how nice the rod feels
You should also cast it to see if you like with the type of casting you do to see if it works for you

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2015 07:19PM by bill boettcher.

Roger;
Under no circumstance do I allow the line to touch the blank!

Andrew;
As far as advice goes: Mr Vanfossen has give you the best so far.

So you all will complain about line touching the blank Guides on top giving the blank and twisting it prone to fault and breakage More guides more thread more finish thus more weight

OK
I give up Why not a spiral wrap

Bill - willierods.com

Bill,

I'm willing to bet there aren't many casting rods in Steve's arsenal that aren't spiral wrapped, if I've read his posts correctly over the years.

I'm a spiral advocate as well, but Andrew asked about a rule of thumb for guide numbers, which I forgot to include.

A good starting point for rods with 5mm - 6mm running guides is L in feet + 1 guide and a tip top. For micros 4mm and smaller, a good starting point is L in feet + 2 guides and a tip top. I have a whippy little 5' UL for my daughter that has a ridiculous number of guides for its length, and a graphite cranking blank that I'm not particularly fond of that has more guides than the rule of thumb. These builds are outliers in my experience.

There is little reason not to spiral wrap. Those who like to point the rod at their crankbaits like the guides on top. My cranking rods are my only casting rod with guides on top, but since I usually fish my cranks with the rod to the side and paralleling some structure, it doesn't make a difference. One is currently waiting to be rewrapped after a mishap with line getting caught in the prop and stripping the guide train. I may pull off the tip top and flip it, or I may not. I have an old Lamiglas 6702 from the ORBS Gathering that will be built into a cranking rod as well. It will likely get spiral wrapped, depending on my mood when I install the tip top.

Joe and Steve,
For the folks who do NOT want to spiral wrap a casting rod, but want the guides to remain on top of the blank, how close together do you need to place the micro guides to keep the line from touching the blank when the blank is fully loaded?

I would guess that there are some spots on the blank where the guides will need to be 3 inches apart.

Take care

p.s.
Bill, there are some types of fishing where the rod user simply does not want a spiral wrapped casting rod. But, the same person wants a rod built with micros. So, on an extra fast casting blank under full load, how far apart do the guides need to be so that the line does not touch the blank since lots of folks say that they do not let the line touch the blank?

Roger,

It depends on the blank. I typically allow the line to just touch the blank between each pair of guides, and I think on a flexible tip, my closest guides may come in at about 3 1/4", so 3" with the line off the blank is about right. This is the issue with the cranking blank and the UL mentioned above. They are really flexible, so the guides come a little closer that I would prefer, but there aren't so many that it seems to be too much weight on the rod. There is no reason to keep the line completely off the blank on a freshwater build regardless of the species. We just don't catch fish that are gong to run fast enough and long enough for it to matter.

On those extra fast blanks, you will only have a handful of guides that are at the minimum distance. It's the blanks with really soft midsections that seem to pose an issue for me. Those rods end up with a lot of guides close together.

By the way, I'm also starting to trend toward 4mm guides for most micro builds these days. The slightly taller frames tend to allow me to get by with 1 fewer guide than 3mm guides. 4mm seems to be the sweet spot for me.

On a parallel note, Roger, how close do you end up with Minima 6mm fly guides? Without the ceramic insert and the lack of neck on those guides, I ended up using a guide or two more than I expected on a build with them as well. The line actually lays slightly closer to the blank than in a Minima 6 fly than a Batson Mini 4.

Roger;
As I build rods for performance only, and have proven many times that spirals out perform all on top set ups.
I can not answer that question.

If I have a client who after explaining the benefits of spiral set ups to. Still insists that they want their guides on top.
I explain to them that I have no interest in building an inferior instrument just because of their lack of understanding or because they want something they perceive as being prettier because the guides look better on top or the rotation of the guides on the blank looks funny to them. I will at that point recommend them to another builder who will build them a good rod.
And tell them: It won't preform like the rod I'd build, but they will most likely be pleased with the results.

Since I only build bass rods for tournament anglers, There may be some types of fishing where guides on top perform better. But I do not know what those are either.

So to answer your question simply: For the folks who do NOT want a spiral wrap a casting rod-- they can NOT get one of my rods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2015 08:13AM by Steve Gardner.

Steve,

Very well put, and I agree with you 100%. A spiral wrap can not be beat in my book.

Ohio Rod Builders

Canton, Ohio

The rod I'll be building on is a 709HM North Fork Composites. For a 9 power rod, it feels more like a 4 power Loomis before they sold out to Shimano. It has a thick, stiff tip with a moderate fast action. I figured I would space the guides like my TFO 7MH and do some static testing since it feels like it has a moderate fast action only with a much softer tip. As far as a spiral wrap, I'm still on the fence. I'm leaning toward trying it out.

Andrew;
If you decide to make that choice, email and I will send you the formula I use to set up a spiral wrap.