Well, after ironing out some rod blank issues with a supplier, I was able to start my first complete build this past week. I wish I was able to say I was able to complete the entire build, but I'm waiting on 2 running guides, one of which I'll need to complete the rod, that were back ordered from my initial components order. Happily, they were shipped late this past week, and I should have them in my hands early this week.

Everything went very well. I cut and turned down the O.D.s for my EVA rear and fore grips. Turned a tenon on the rear grip to accept the EVA butt cap, and then dry fitted the butt cap on the rear grip, and turned down the O.D. to match. It ended up gluing up beautifully with a barely discernible line of where the two pieces meet. The O.D. of a trim ring I had ordered to put between the rear grip and the back of the reel seat didn't match the O.D. of the reel seat as well as I would have hoped, (the trim ring's O.D. was smaller) but I was able to center and glue it to the rear of the real seat before installing the seat. I used a foam arbor for the thread tube. Those things are great. Easy to cut, easy to bore, easy to ream., and it fit the inside of the tube beautifully. I used a Pac Bay Minima split reel seat, that wasn't nearly as tricky to install as I thought it might be. I just used the foot that I cut off an old reel I had laying around, to keep the two halves spaced properly.

I also epoxied a line level on the reel foot to use as an aid in making sure the rod was straight up and down during guide placement. A neat little trick I picked up from going through past threads on this web site. I wish I could remember the members name that mentioned it in the thread. I'd like to give them credit and say that it works pretty darned sweet.

I was able to do my static load test for guide placement, but because I was missing one guide, I had to do a little maneuvering of the running guides I had available. I went ahead and wrapped everything I could, and was going to wait for the needed guide to get here before I applied finish, but I couldn't wait, so I went ahead and put finish on the guides I already had installed. That's when my failure showed up.

Bubbles in the first coat of finish on my hook keeper wraps, and two of my reduction guide wraps. A problem that I did not have on the three rods I had replaced the guides on, last year. I know it was my fault, but I'm wondering what may have been the cause, since I didn't have that problem with the other guides. I was using black thread so I didn't use CP. Something I should probably always use. But I didn't use CP on the other wraps and had no bubbles in those. Could it be that the room I put the finish on and had the rod turning in was slightly cold? I had my finish stored in that room and had to pop the resin in the microwave for the recommended 10 seconds in order to make it draw into the syringe easier. Could the finish being warmer have caused the bubbles? The wraps that bubbled were the first three sets of wraps that I applied finish to. All of the other wraps on this rod turned out fine.

I also think I could have put too much finish on. Another thing I learned last year, but really showed up on this build, is that it is pretty tough to get a nice even line where finish hits the blank when the blank is only turning 6 RPM. Last year I had refinished the blanks on all three rods I did, with Perma Gloss. This blank has a matte finish. Boy does it show. It's not completely ugly by any means, but they're not as crisp as I was hoping for.

Any ideas to help with that? Possibly putting a wrap of masking tape around the blank and then pulling it off immediately after finish is applied, or after the finish has turned for a bit? And short of removing the wraps and starting over, is there a way to fix those wavy lines? I know how to fix the bubbles.

Anyhow ...... other than the bubbles and the wavy finish to blank lines, the build turned out really well. Thanks to all that gave me advice in my past threads. I don't know that this first build would have went as well without your input.

BTW .... an MHX SJ783 blank with 6 1/4" trimmed off the butt is going to make an awesome 6' jerkbait rod for bass. It has the exact action I was looking for.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2015 09:35AM by David Baylor.

Use a bit of heat after the finish is on to thin the finish and get rid of the bubbles.

Apply the finish faster than 6 rpm, like 20-50 rpm and you get a very clean line on the edges.

Good luck

I do my first thin coat of finish pretty fast on the power wrapper, I would say about mid throttle if that makes since. Go over all the thread, lightly, let it soak in then come back on dry mode, I use 18rpm, and add a little more, it want go past where you started and the line will be clean.

I never do one thick coat, always 2, sometimes 3.

You can take a razor and cut the waves off, lightly sand the edges and apply another coat and it will straighten out and you will never know they where there! Works great.

I think you had a combo of issues, first, to cold in the room, 2nd, to much epoxy at one time.

Just my .02

Lee

I agree with not even trying to get by with one coat. Put on a thin coat first and this gives you a chance to cut off any defects like thread nubbins (I know, do it right and you won't have them. But sooner or later you will have them) or a big piece of dust, etc.

You do not have to use CP if you don't want to. I usually do not if I like the color I get without it (do a test wrap and wet the wrap with alcohol to see approx what color will be without CP. )

Read "improving your epoxy finish" in the library. Be wary of too much heat. All the heat I use is what the epoxy gets from holding the bottles under running hot water for 30 seconds or so. The epoxy is not hot, just a bit warmer than the ambient temp. Keep your working area at a warm temp, and keep it clean. I think what some think are bubbles are sometimes dust. If you choose to use a blower of any kind, dust will most likely be an issue if you don't keep your area clean.

I don't have the proper rpm for the easy accomplishment of great edges on the wrap epoxy so I use the very slow "drying motor" with a square edge brush, a steady hand, and lots of patience. They come out pretty well. Check out the FBCH brushes at Mudhole. Some builders use spatulas for epoxy. I've tried it, still prefer brushes. Keep in mind that you can fix those edges you are not proud of with another carefully applied coat of finish.

If you are going to use good brushes you cannot afford to not clean them well, U40 brush cleaner is magic. There may be others as good but I've not tried them.

One mistake that many have learned by experience is not having the blank level in the drying rig. If it is off level by much the finish may migrate to the low end giving a tapered shape to your wrap.

Don't get discouraged, sounds like you are coming along very well, and you WILL get better with every build.

Finish problems on your first rod. What a surprise! GRIN.
Here's my how to-
Measure carefully using small syringes. I got mine from Bingham for a couple of dollars.
I mix on the bottom of an empty beer can. The dimple is the perfect size for a set of guides or most decorative wraps.

Michael's or any other craft store has cheap disposable plastic brushes, I buy a gross at a time and use a fresh brush every time.

My room has to be at least 70 degrees.
I don't stir the epoxy. Going round and round pulls air bubbles into your mix.

Tilt the can so the epoxy runs from side to side. Stroke the mix as it traverses the can. Turn the can, tilt, stroke again etc.

Before I use the mix I flick-my-Bic and hold it to the opening in the bottom of the can. You will feel the heat through the can, you don't have to burn yourself, you are just warming the mix to release any trapped air.

I use a mid-speed to apply my finish. You don't want it flying off and splattering the walls, but not as slow as a drying speed.

Larger guides need more finish, but on my #5 running guides, if I load the brush then touch the wrap in the middle, as it's turning, that's more than enough. Get it on and move on.

After the first pass, I stop the winder and inspect the guides. This is when I poke around guide foot tunnels and touch up the leading edge of the thread etc. Once I am satisfied with the wraps, I look at the bottom sides to see if there is any finish drooping. If there is, I wick it off. Now switch to drying speed and leave it alone.

At this point, I like to empty another beer can, just to be ready for any touch-ups I will do tomorrow...

Next day I inspect, looking for nubs or thin spots etc.
Normally if you bring the finish to the edge of the thread it will flow and seep over just enough. If I'm not happy, I touch it up with a thin second coat along with any other defects.

On hook keepers or decorative wraps near the reel seat etc. I often use a single turn of tape for a straight edge. I turn back the tag end of the tape so that it adheres to itself. This tab is used to remove it as soon as I switch to the drying motor.

This tape might be 3/8 or 1/2 an inch from the end of the wrapping, what I want is a slight taper from finish to the blank.
I put the tape on, burnish the edge, apply a generous amount of finish, then remove the tape on the first or second rotation of the drying motor. If there is a tiny flaw when the tape comes off, don't touch it and don't worry. The finish will flow slightly and cover the flaw.

I hope this helps
Garry2R's

Dave,

Pics or it didn't happen :). Glad to hear that the first build is done barring those extra running guides. Straight finish edges are still something that doesn't come out perfect for me, though they aren't horrible.

You have some great info above, but here is what works well enough for me, even if not 100% perfect. A steady rest for your hand can go a long way, but my rods are usually don't have a full bench underneath of them to take advantage of a steady rest. In this situation, I apply finish on top of the thread and then slide some just past the edge of the wrap and let it fall to the blank.

If you make it to one of the ORBS breakfasts, or to the next Gathering, you will have to bring that rod to show off. With your attention to detail, I bet it looks pretty sharp.

Joe

Roger, Lee, Michael, and Garry, thank you all for the tips. Garry, I expected that grin. lol In a prior thread I even said I expected a problem or two. To be honest, I know the majority of the problem came from being in too much of a hurry. And that came from being over confident. So I definitely deserve the I told you so grin. :wink:

This was my first complete build, but not the first time I had put guides on a rod. I had replaced the guides on three other rods, and those wraps turned out as well as the 5 other wraps I did on the present rod. Those wraps were bubble free. That's why I was a bit puzzled by the bubbles in the three wraps I mentioned.

Roger, I'm definitely going to get a faster speed drying motor. The dryer I'm using now, I fashioned out of an old microwave turntable motor. I knew it was slow last year, but the blanks having a gloss finish from the Perma Gloss, made the wavy edges pretty much invisible. I'm going to be ordering an 18 RPM motor from Mud Hole when I place my next rod order. Another mistake I made was not going back to check on the finish a few minutes after I finished putting the finish on. Once again ... an over confidence thing on my part. If I had, I would have seen the bubbles and put a little heat to the wraps, just as you suggested.

Lee, and Michael, thank you both for the tips on fixing those wavy edges. I will definitely use that information to touch these edges up. Also thank you for your finish applying tips. I'm kind of embarrassed to say that I did read the "improving your epoxy finish" in the library. I did the three wraps that ended up bubbling using the procedure outlined in that article. The problem I had was ....... after doing the remaining wraps I came back and looked at the first three, and they looked "thin" Yes I know, they are supposed to be thin. And I even told myself that, But I didn't listen to myself, so I put another light coat on top of those three wraps. I didn't think it would cause problems. But my guess is, if it wasn't a big part of my problem, it was at least part of the problem. And I'll definitely use a sharper edged brush, or the masking tape that Garry mentioned for getting those epoxy edges nice and crisp.

Garry, thank you for outlining your personal process. I appreciate it, and will definitely be adopting some of those practices. I had been using plastic mixing cups for the epoxy, but I'll be switching to the aluminum ones so I can put a little heat into the epoxy to help rid it of air bubbles. I'm also going to try that epoxy mixing process you used.

Everyone was right in that it seems I had a couple of issues that I didn't account for. The number one issue being ..... I was over confident because the previous wraps I'd done, turned out really well. The sad thing is that throughout my fishing career, I've learned that over confidence usually leads to poor results. I just wish I would have kept that in mind with these darn wraps. lol

Thanks again you guys. I truly do appreciate you taking the time to respond, and for sharing a heck of a lot of great information. I'd say I doubt I'll have the same problem again but ........... I've learned my lesson. Patience and humility. lol

Do yourself a favor and purchase an epoxy mixer. One of the best investments I've made.

For wavy edges I tear off a piece of coffee filter fold, add some DNA. Use folded edge to clean up epoxy edge. Repeat with dry coffee filter then let sit.

Hope this helps, Bob

Talk to Roger he can dirrect you to a motor and adjuster for speed Or build one for you and this way you can put the finish on at a higher speed and then get better edgesand faster coverage When covered you can then slow it down to let it flow nicely

Bill - willierods.com

"I also epoxied a line level on the reel foot to use as an aid in making sure the rod was straight up and down during guide placement. A neat little trick I picked up from going through past threads on this web site"

I use a old Penn conventional reel seat base with a 3" 10-32 bolt in the center very easy to sight with bolt

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2015 07:45PM by Barry Thomas Sr.

Some thing a littleaser is an old seat I can get very cheap
And i cut the feet off Then what i do is say for a Low Profile seat is cut low and then put a V on the end for the line to lay on and be taped to the seat to hold it manybe others depending on how high the line comes off the reel

Bill - willierods.com

Some thing a little Easer is an old seat I can get very cheap
And i cut the feet off Then what i do is say for a Low Profile seat is it cut low and then put a V on the end for the line to lay on and be taped to the seat to hold it manybe others depending on how high the line comes off the reel

Bill - willierods.com

lol Joe on the "pics or it didn't happen" thing. Boy don't we both know that from our OGF membership. I caught a 7# bass .... Oh yeah? Where are the pics? lol I'll take some pics and upload them to the photos section so I can put a couple of links in the thread. Thanks for the vote of confidence about how the rod might look. It really does look pretty sweet. My only regret is not painting the blank, black. The gold trim bands on the wraps, coupled with the gold guide rings and other gold accents I put on would have popped much better on a gloss black blank. I just didn't want to put the work into painting the blank considering the bulges I'd shown you. Maybe on that square bill crankbait rod I'll be building soon.

And Joe, I had thought about fashioning a rest of some kind. What I really need to build is a high table. Something I can have a little higher than waist level. Currently I put my finish on while sitting on the floor in front of the rod dryer. And I definitely need to get better lighting. These old eyes and black size A make wraps a little slow. lol As far as the wavy edges. I really think the faster turning motor will help get those crisp lines I'm looking for.

Bob, that's a great idea with using a coffee filter. I had thought of using a paper towel with DNA on t to try and clean up the lines, but I wasn't sure if that would have been such a good idea. Now that you've mentioned it working for you, I'll be sure to keep it in mind for the next wavy edge I'm not happy with. Thank you very much for sharing that. And while I'd like to have one of those epoxy mixers .... buying that means I can't buy as many blanks n such to build more rods. lol

Bill, an adjustable speed set up would be nice. And a power wrapper would be super nice, The power wrapper isn't in my future because I only plan to build rods for myself and maybe a couple of my tournament partners. I had thought about setting up my dryer with a two pulley system so I could bump up the speed by changing an O ring belt from one pulley to another. A potentiometer on a drying motor may work also, but I'm not sure. It would be a simple thing for me to try though. I do know I need a faster motor for putting on finish though. 6 RPM is agonizingly slow.

And I like the idea of making some kind of line attachment for the reel foot level thing I'm using now. I only use one brand of reels and all of them are the same height from reel foot to center of the line guide. Thanks for that great idea. I'm going to work on something, and if I come up with something I think could help others, I'll be sure to post my results.

Barry, I like the idea of having something like that to sight down the blank with. I used to shoot competitive archery back in the day, and as soon as I looked at the pictures you linked I thought..... peep sight. I'll be fashioning something for darn sure. Yet another thank you to a Rodbuilding.org member for a helpful idea.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I love this place !!!


Thanks again for the tips guys. I truly appreciate each and everyone, And I'll get some pictures up loaded so I can post a couple. And when I do I hope for some honest critiques. If you see something you think I might want to do, to make a more professional looking or a better performing rod, I hope I can count on you guys to keep me going in the right direction.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 08:05AM by David Baylor.

Dave,
You got a lot of useful information, I can only add that you get off the floor as soon as you can. Not just for comfort and quality of work, but wait until your wife steps into that little puddle of epoxy you dripped!

If you get down to Canton / North Canton area give me a call and I will show you my set up with a sewing machine motor. send me an email for my phone number. bkcustomrods@yahoo.com

Our next breakfast will be Saturday April 11 at North Canton I Hop at 9:00.

Bill

Ohio Rod Builders

Canton, Ohio

If you are applying finish while on the floor, get or make a table to get the rod off the floor.
Not only is it difficult to do a good job, while hunched over on the floor, you are close to sources of dust and dirt that can get into your finish.

For doing drying, I made a folding table. I took a 2x8 of an appropriate length and attached a pair of folding legs to each end of the board. Very inexpensive and is plenty wide enough to hold a rod on a dryer. Clamp down the dryer and rod rests so that the drying rod does not fall off of the folding table.

I know some folks who will just take a 1X6 board of an appropriate length and lay it on top of a folding ironing board, if space is tight. The ironing board will hold the rod, dryer, and rod rests just fine. Just take a couple of C clamps to clamp everything securely together to avoid having the dryer creep and fall off of the table.

Yes, have excellent light, when doing finish work. Any time that one does detail work, studies indicate that the lighting level should be about 5 times brighter than general room illumination. This is why factores doing detail work all have some sort of task lighting that illuminates the direct work area with a nice bright source of light.

Here is one example of the light that I use for all rod wrapping and finish work:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Also, if you don't have a magnifier when wrapping rods and applying finish, do your eyes a favor and get one.
An example:
[www.amazon.com]

By using a head band mounted magnifier, that has the magnifying lens away from the eyes, one can have a reasonable focal length with which to work. For example, if I use my single vision computer glasses that have a focal length of 28 inches, the use of the 2.5 magnifying lens in this magnifier moves the focal distance down to about 14 inches which is just fine for wrapping rods and applying finish.

Conversely, if one used a pair of 3X reading glasses with normal vision eyes, the focal distance would be reduced to about 6 inches which makes it very difficult to wrap and finish rods in a comfortable fashion.

As eyes age and change, one needs to have more magnification and also more light to do a great job in building and finishing rods.

Good luck



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2015 11:49AM by roger wilson.

David, just a comment on one thing you mentioned in one of your posts. You thought part of your problem might be from being in a hurry. Actually, it's been my observation that many of the problems people experience result from futzing around and trying to brush or paint the epoxy on. My finishes never looked really good until I drastically sped up the application and started to hit the epoxy with heat.

Bill E. I'm with you on getting off the floor to do my rod wrapping and finish applications. Darn legs don't like being all bent up in awkward positions as they once didn't.. As far as the wife stepping in a puddle of epoxy goes ... lol I don't have to worry about that. I've been divorced for quite some time. Which I can say at this time of year is a good thing. I'm in the process of doing annual reel cleanings and tackle inventory, I'm sure a wife wouldn't appreciate the amount of fishing gear I have in the house right now. lol And I looked at trying to buy an old sewing machine last year to use as a rod wrapper. Those things are hard to find at yard sales, and when I was able to find one the people invariably wanted more money than I was willing to spend at the time. But it is definitely something I'll keep looking for.

As far as the ORBS breakfast, I've love to attend, and if I can I most likely will. But unless I'm fishing, I have a standing every Saturday morning breakfast date with my dad. I'll see if he wants to come along.

Roger, your mentioning of an ironing board has me feeling pretty darn stupid right now. It also has me rubbing a red mark on my forehead from smacking myself in the head for not thinking about it. LOL A couple of pieces of 4x4 mounted to the legs to add height and increase stability should serve me quite well. Heck, I think I may actually get a couple of them and build a collapsible table out of them.

Also, I had looked at that picture of the light you posted. I remember thinking that the coffee can you used as a stand for the magnetic base on the light was a darn slick idea. I may be borrowing that idea, or when I build my collapsible table I'll look into mounting a strip of sheet metal along the top so I could move the light around as well. Either way I have to fashion something to get more light while doing finish work. I had looked at the head band mounted magnifiers, but wasn't sure how well they worked. The only ones I've looked at have been at Harbor Freight, and the quality of them was pretty low. I need to look elsewhere. Would you have any suggestions for one I may want to look at, that won't break the bank?

And John, I definitely know what you mean about futzing around with something too long can make things worse. That was actually one of the mistakes I made that lead to the wavy finish edge lines. They weren't looking up to the standards I had hoped they would, but they looked better than what the did after I tried to play with them a little more. They definitely grew wider, that's for sure. lol As I said in a previous post. I have no doubts that a faster turning speed is going to make a big difference in my edges, and if I'm still having trouble with them I use Bob Jumper's idea of the coffee filter and alcohol to clean them up, or Garry Thornton's masking tape suggestion to get them right.

Once again, thank you to everyone for your help. You've all helped immensely. I've already got the itch to order another set of components for my next build. It's going to be another 6' rod built from a 6'6" blank. Another bass rod for square bill cranks, wake baits, and smaller hard body swim baits. It may even see time as a buzz bait rod if it turns out to be the rod I think it will.

Thanks again everyone !!!

David,
One thing that some folks do, is to take a 4 foot florescent shop light and hang it on chains so that the light is about 25 inches or so above the rod being built. By having the bulbs at this distance, normally gives excellent general illumination for a very low cost. Just put a couple of hooks in the ceiling and hang chains from the hooks and then hang the light from the chains.

Also, X10 on John's comments about speed in applying finish and the use of gentle heat to let the finish flow. I make a goal of completing the application of epoxy finish in 120 seconds from the time that I take the finish off the mixer. That way, there is still good flow on the finish without a lot of issues.

If you can only do one or two guides in that amount of time - then mix as many small batches as necessary to get the job done.

But, as Mr. Kirkman has posted many times before, get the finish on the rod, and with the rod turning quickly let the finish flow out and level by itself and it will be fine.

I like to use a magnifier like this one, because it is light, simple and simply works very well. I can wear it all day long and I forget that it is even on my head.

[www.amazon.com]

Heck I use coffee tables to clear my rods The ones that you use when some one comes over and you sit it in front of them to have coffee When not in use they fold up
Got a magnifier fly tying light I use for wrapping guides

Go dumpster diving You can find a lot of stuff to build tables Shelfs cabinets and such Just clean before bringing in the house LOL

Bill - willierods.com

LOL Clean thoroughly