Why not hang quarters or half dollars? Makes about as much sense (cts) to me. Why not hang the lure wt. that you wish to cast and see what the blank does, then go out and cast it.

Because the CCS uses pennies (verbatim weight with proper resolution) for the measurement portion of the system.

The weight of the pennies is not the same as the line weight (physical weight) or casting lure weight. The CCS ERN is a measure of power or stiffness.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2015 05:35PM by Tom Kirkman.

So I can't use fifty cent pieces and count each one as the equivalent of fifty pennies? Just kidding!

Well, you better check your pennies!! Those made before 1980 are pure copper, and those made after are just copper plated. There is a weight difference!!

Randolph,
I hope this isn’t some kind of posturing competition…..if so, I concede, although I am a few years older than you and I may have you beat regarding your bamboo pole in VN….I used hand grenades….much more effective (Ha). I apologize if I sound like I’m suggesting what you should or shouldn’t do in your rod building or fishing. Whatever works for you is fine with me. I do appreciate your efforts in trying to save me from myself though (Ha).
As far as my customer’s welfare…not a problem…I seldom build rods to sell rods anymore. I also don’t worry too much about voiding the mfg’s warrantee. FWIW, besides trimming blanks, I also remove all the finish, which also voids the warranty. I think the last rod I broke was 4 or 5 years ago….not from "over-lining”. I’m also well aware of trimming from the blanks tip or butt affecting both the Power and Action (and lure weights)….that’s one of the reasons I do it….aside from wanting shorter blanks that aren't available from mfg’rs.

I doubt if anyone can convince you of the benefits of measuring blanks/rods and if buying “off the shelf” parts (blanks, reel seats, etc.) and good old “trial and error” works for you, you’re good to go. Been there, done that.

Since you mentioned the weights of pennies…the CCS article in the left column of your screen states that pennies dated after 1996 have an average weight of 38.61 grains. The use of pennies for measuring is just a convenient/accurate/practical way of adding the required weight to deflect the rod for comparative ratings, but anything (sinkers, rocks, bb’s, fifty-cent pieces, etc.) can be used, then weighed.

Bill,
Not sure I understand your question, but if you’re asking how far the rod will flex with 5 ounces hanging off the tip, the answer would be not very far….nowhere near 1/3 of the length in a static mode. The fast tip would get you the greater flex at the tip. I’ll email you pics of 2 rods with identical powers, but one is fast and the other moderate/slow.

Jim,

Just my $.02,

And let me first say that I've only dabbled with the various systems because I don't build a lot of handheld rods used for casting. Having prefaced that, it's been my experience that among the few obsolete blanks I have tried to measure and duplicate by trimming using the various measurement systems that the MFG's listed ratings can vary widely when comparing against another MFG similarly rated blanks. In my limited understanding this confounds the problem of trying to predict that if I choose "x" blank with rating of Y-Z and trim n inches from it I will get a predictable result that equates to a different MFG's rod rated a-b.

I've never felt confident in the accuracy of such calculations from a predictability standpoint. Sometimes it seems like it can be real close and other times it can be markedly off. I have a lot more confidence in simulating a cut point by temporary mounting a guide at possible tip locations and then doing some real-world (either myself or the customer) assessment with the actual rigging and terminal tackle/bait.

If I'm off the mark and not understanding your original question, then just ignore my post as I don't think I could offer any further insight.

Two equal ERN and AA measurements will indeed indicate the exact same power and action. But the instant you introduce "feel" into the equation then things get a little fuzzy as two blanks made of different materials or from different design standpoints may share the same power and action, but feel completely different. The frequency component of the CCS dials this in a lot closer, but in the end you can't necessarily get the same feel from two differently made blanks by any amount of cutting or trimming. There are some inherent characteristics in a rod blank that the custom builder can't change.

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Tom,

So is the OP talking about theoretical aspects, real world aspects, or transferring the theory to real-world (I suspect the last). It's the real world aspects (the subjective feel you talk about) that I have difficulty in quantifying and using in any meaningful way.

Jim is primarily concerned with determining a practical casting weight range for blanks he has trimmed. That was never intended to be included in the CCS although I put in a soft equation at the time and Dr. Hanneman added a component for that in the URRS. It may be too subjective in nature because what a blank can withstand and what you may throw coupled with your own input may create quite a rather wide range that not everyone is going to be comfortable with. In other words, the casting weight range, while an inherent characteristic, is within a range, not necessarily a single point on a relative scale such as power, action and frequency are.

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Tom,

Oh, thanks for the clarification. I was misunderstanding his original post. So his intent is more for reporting of lure weight range once he has cut and measured a blank rather than using the data to determining a point of cut. This makes much more sense to me now.

With that clarification, I have nothing experientially to contribute to the thread.

In theory you could do that too, but you'd have to have some idea of the input added by the angler so it would be difficult. Not at all difficult to get the power and action prior to the cut, but casting lure weight is going to be difficult.

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John,
I can woefully attest to what Tom says about 2 rods with the same Power and Action not having the same “feel”. Sometimes close, but not quite the same.

Tom,
I think the key word in all of this is “range”. If a reasonable/practical range can be calculated, the angler can establish the optimum lure weights based on his individual subjectivity or perception. The equation from CCS does that for me, so I may continue using it. I did expand it slightly (Changed 1.5 to 1.8) to expand the range a bit….for my own use. Can't help but wonder how blank manufacturers determine their lure weight ranges.

Guesstimate, trial and error. Believe it or not. You design to something you hope will be about right, working perhaps from another model and moving slightly up or down. Tweak as required to get what you want.

Some years back I had some surf rod blanks made. I knew what I needed and none of the manufacturer's mandrels would quite let us get it without really overdoing the wall thickness of the blank. We ended up sliding the entire thing back about 4 inches on the mandrel (we had 6 to play with) which increased the diameter enough to get what I wanted.

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OK

What about Seeker blanks that are said to be made longer and trimed to fit the lure weight

So i guess a fly blank hanging pennies and having the blank flex 1/3rd it's length only works with fly blanks

What about bass blanks or surf blanks

If one can not find a blank at how long they ( or the customer wants ) Say 8' but finds a blank of say 5 oz lure weight but wants it to work with 8 oz lure weight
There is no way to hang 8 oz on the blank -- move the weight down the blank so as to have it flex 1/3rd it's length then add some to the butt to keep it a certain length ??

Why can it be done with a fly line
How is it done with SAY SEEKER blanks that are said to be trimmed to fit a lure weight

Bill - willierods.com

OK

What about Seeker blanks that are said to be made longer and trimed to fit the lure weight And I am sure MANY other companies

So i guess a fly blank hanging pennies and having the blank flex 1/3rd it's length only works with fly blanks

What about bass blanks or surf blanks

If one can not find a blank at how long they ( or the customer wants ) Say 8' but finds a blank of say 5 oz lure weight but wants it to work with 8 oz lure weight
There is no way to hang 8 oz on the blank -- move the weight down the blank so as to have it flex 1/3rd it's length then add some to the butt to keep it a certain length ??

Why can it be done with a fly line
How is it done with SAY SEEKER blanks that are said to be trimmed to fit a lure weight

Bill - willierods.com

Bill,

The 1/3 distance to deflection is a standard for CCS system measurements. It has nothing to do with what type blank it is. The amount of weight required to flex the blank to the static measurement position is not the amount of weight the blank can cast.

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Can the feel be partially attributed to differences in intermediate measurements along a blank? For instance two blanks might have similar measurements at specific points but follow a different loaded path between the points.

My question is meant to assume everything else being equal.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2015 08:54AM by John E Powell.

Bill,
Yes, blanks can be trimmed to change blank characteristics including Power, Action, Lure Weight and Length (obviously), but doing so can adversely affect some characteristics of the blank. Trimming from the tip is especially critical and requires caution. Trying to increase the power of your blank to be able to cast 8 ounce lures would probably require cutting so much off the tip that the Action may not be acceptable.
The mfg’s that trim blanks to accommodate different requirements would have specs based on prior testing as part of their development process. The designers can use formulas to get within certain parameters, but further testing is needed to refine the engineering process.
For us as rod builders, there are a few options open to us to “tweek” blanks to satisfy a specific need, but we need to know the blanks limitations and perhaps our own as well (Ha). Fortunately we have several means of measuring blanks/rods to determine what we’re working with and gives us a baseline so as to consider where we might want to change certain characteristics. Unfortunately, I don’t know of any “shortcuts” other than “trial and error”, which I’ve done myself and ruined….well, not ruined, but ended up with less-than-perfect results (snicker). Having the means to measure blanks/rods to quantify the pertinent characteristics allows us to relate to our subjective on-the-water testing (cause and effect).

"Feel" is mostly about weight and weight distribution. For instance, you can have a bamboo rod blank and a graphite rod blank with absolutely identical power and actions, but they aren't going to feel the same as one is heavier than the other. The frequencies will be different.

Two rods with the same resonant frequency, or CCF, will indeed feel much the same.

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