Hey guys,

I'm building a 12 ft salmon steelhead blank for light saltwater fishing. I read two concepts for KR, the one posted on anglers resource (20H,10H, 5.5H/M), and a updated version which calls for a 4-guide reduction train using:

1. 20H-10H-7M-6L
or
2.16H-8H-6M-5.5L.

I purchased both groups, as well as 4.5 KB/KTs. I haven't tried the original concept on anglers resource because my sources were out of 5.5H/M guides. I'm pairing my rod with a 3000 shimano stradic ci4+ and 15lb braid.

My problem is that after laying out my reduction guides, I find that the space between the reduction and choke is shorter than I'd like for my runners. For example, I want to space my runners around 6-8" but my last reduction spacing is like 4.5". I don't want to place a runner every 4" down 6' of blank... So is it normal to have the runner spacing longer than the reduction? It'll look kind of funky to me. I have the 2014 fuji guide spacing PDF but I'm keeping it as a last resort for spacing my custom build..

I'd appreciate any advice for building on a rod this length. This is my first spinning rod build and I could use a little help since I'm not 100% confident that I am doing this correctly

I don't think it matters, the length of the rod. Some of us on the gulf coast have been using the following w/ nice results, w/ a 2500/3000 Shimano: 16H at 17-18" from the reel lip extended out, 5.5H at ~25 1/2", and a KB4 at ~32 1/2". Runners are are determined w/ static testing. You've got the guides, just tape em up and do some test casting.

Conner, the KR concept should prove interesting on a 12 foot rod (I've gone up to 10'6" with great results) and my guess is it will work great. Be aware that you will likely end up with most if not all the reduction guides on the lower piece of a two piece blank...some don't like it but it really doesn't hurt a thing. In the KR CONCEPT the line is choked very quickly and simple physics tells you that it must go from choking down (at an angle) to flowing along the surface of the blank. This is a directional change or "corner" it must make as smoothly as possible to avoid "rubbing" the blank. This occurs even with NGC set ups and has never been a problem but with KR if you can help the line make the turn it will be the icing on the cake for great performance. Our solution is to move the choke a little further out to "lift" the line up and away from the blank as it starts to make the slight turn. We have seen small performance improvements from doing this and it will also give you some more flexibility in spacing the runners. Set the choke up to position itself as shown in this illustration [www.rodbuilding.org] when viewed from the stripper to the choke and see if things don't start making more sense.

Thanks Jim, for a rod this length would you recommend a 3 guide reduction (20-10-5.5H) plus a kb choke (4.5)? I don't plan on throwing a leader and nothing higher than 15lb braid. I've noticed my guides have fallen on the bottom half of the blank, but the choke guide is around the area of the ferrule, which I assume would be better placed on the top half.

What about the runner spacing? From the early placements, I found that the reduction train is typically short in total length, which I understand is the point of the concept. What I'm finding is that I'll need a hefty amount of runners if I space them at the same distance from the last reduction guide to choke. Is it common to extend the runner spacing on longer rods for the sake of not using a ton of runners?

Jim
That photo makes no sense to me My common sense tells me to do it this way
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Is that last ring the chock guide ??

Are you finding there is better performance to that photo ???

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2014 05:03PM by bill boettcher.

Bill, I've thought about following that guide as well. Seems like it'll be a concept build using the high frame guides and wouldn't technically be a KR build? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that illustration Jim posted shows the stripper forming a bullseye with the reduction guides when sighted down the blank. The choke guide is the last ring which is pushed up toward the top of the bullseye

Hay ya never know till ya try It may just work better I always bullseye to the chock

Bill - willierods.com

Jim,
Moving the choker further out is against the KR concept convention of rapid choking, isn't it ? Even though it makes sense because on long saltwater rods with small reels with large upsweep, the traditional NGC will put the choke too close to the reel and you end up with all reduction guides packed in the first piece of the rod. We discussed this in my case.

Conner,
I would assume that with 15lb braid you can go with a 16H. With that length of rod it is normal that reduction guides will fall mostly on the first piece especially if you have a small reel. This is what happened to me on my 8.5 ft seabass rod but I still have to test cast. Also I assume that with your length you might be better off with 4 rather than 3 reduction guides. Jim knows best, let's wait for his replies :)

AL

Hi Conner,

I wouldn't worry about amount of running guides unless their total weight is an issue. With KR, NGC, 27x etc, the sizes used for running guides are such that it takes a whole bunch of them to equal the weight of a single reduction guide.

The longest rod I've done (27x) was 14'6" and similar in action and purpose to yours. Rather than use a set distance for the runners on this rod, I modified spacing by dividing the blank's upper half, (after the choke), into 3 seperate segments that correspond to the way blank flexes under load.

Going up the blank, the first segment has runners spaced equi-distant at 6 inches. Second section has them set at 5", and the portion nearest the tip has them at 4.5" apart. By spacing my runners this way I was able to use the least amount of guides and still have a smooth transition of the line from reel to tip. I believe 17 runners total were used. The rod works very well and I was pleased with how crisp and light the tip section is.

Perhaps you could try something similar and extend that last 4.5" spacing to the runners as far as you can (if blank flex allows), then drop it down to 4" as needed? The 6-8" spacing you mention is too far apart imho, especially near the tip. There really is no hard and fast measurement for spacing runners as each rod will have different nuances in way it bends. Good idea to try a few variations and see what each gives you.

-chad



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2014 09:35AM by Chad Barlongo.

Thank you Chad an all who responded. Busy with Thanksgiving and been off the computer for a few days. I test casted at the park and so far so good. Casts were silent other than the initial burst of line off the spool. I went with a 16H-8H-5.5L reduction to a 4.5 runner choke. I did not see or hear any line slap along the redeuction train, and have managed to get a bullseye while looking down the blank from the stripper. I pushed the choke out like the illustration, but slightly higher. Even at that position I did not see line "crashing" into the blank. I will update tomorrow with the guide spacing, all I remember is the space from the 5.5L to 4.5 kb was just under 6". It looks odd going form 6" to an 8" increment, may take your advice to go with 6" spacing

Chad, I tested with 8" spacing just to allow me to get some casts in. I've got an entire 6' top section to put runners on. I will be doing a static load to better distribute the stress. Without a doubt I will be tapering the runner progression towards the tip. Thank you for your insight, I appreciate it! I initially had 6" spacing but was recommended going with 7-8" initial spacing, I will be tinkering with this tomorrow. Now I need to find a football field so I can get some numbers on my casting tests



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2014 03:36AM by Conner Pascual.

Conner,
NGC, KR, 27x...these setups differ from traditional ones in that they require more (and smaller) running guides spaced fairly close together. This allows for your line to "hug" the rod blank and follow its curve under load as precisely as possible, similar to two parabolas spaced evenly apart one above the other.

From what I understand, casting and overall performance increases when line can flow smoothly without having to make abrupt angles from guide-to-guide as Jim mentions. So having running guides spaced farther apart than the reduction guides may create friction points as the angle of the line from guide-to-guide becomes greater. Then again I've never built a rod that way...

On longer rods though, I've noticed it's possible to increase spacing between the runners a bit more than typical, especially if the rod has minimal amount of bend thru its mid-section...So again, If your static test allows for extension of that under 6" spacing (5.5L to 4.5 kb) up into the runners, then dropping it down to match blank's curve, you'll end up using the very least amount of guides needed for a KR setup on that 6' section of blank :)

-chad



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2014 06:19AM by Chad Barlongo.

Been out for T-giving but it appears most issues have been suitable addressed here. Especially with great results on the test casting by Conner. I know the odd choke position seems contrary to convention but I am only sharing what seems to work best for us. Couple of things I would have considered here if I had been working up this layout.

1) I would have looked at a 4 guide reduction train with the #4 guide on or near the ferrule. The rationale (and it's not based in any info from Fuji) is to keep the line higher off the blank as it passes the ferrule due to the "edge" created by the top section fitting over the bottom section. With a low choke guide there the line may "rub" the edge when making that final turn. A higher reduction guide there would seem to eliminate that possibility. This is all theory.

2) More theory. A long rod will generate super high initial lure speed and the line will be coming from a smaller-than-normal spool on the smaller reel. RPM's on that spool will be higher than what it was designed for and I'm thinking it may "billow" more at those speeds, effectively making the line act like it is coming from a larger diameter spool. I would have probably started with a 20 in the 4 guide reduction train mentioned above.

I know....overthinking again.

Hmm, interesting points, going to have some coffee and reread the posts a few times. Thanks Chad and Jim for the insight!

1. I need to ask, please correct me if I'm wrong. Can I still use KR guides (KL H) to build NGC using 27x and a straight edge? i.e. Use 27x, place 4.5 kt at choke position, line up spool axle to top of choke guide on an edge, and place KL-H reduction along the edge. I'm assuming this would be a regular NGC build rather than a true KR, but still absoluelty fine to do?

2. Here are my current guide spacing from the test casting:

Top of reel axle to 16H Stripper: ~23"
16H to 8H: 11 1/4"
8H to 5.5L: 10 1/2"
5.5L to 4.5kb: 6 1/8"
Runners: currently 8" but thinking of revising when static test is done

The 5.5L sits right below the tip section's ferrule when the two pieces are put together. The 4.5L sits on the tip section of the rod while the other 3 reduction guides are on the butt half. I paid close attention to the transition from the 5.5 to 4.5 over the ferrule and could not see the line touching the blank surface.

3. Going with a 20H grouping, what would you recommend? 20H-10H-7L-6M?


Thank you for your patience and willingess to help. I'm particularly interested in question #1, as I've contemplated in resorting to that method of guide placement. I don't see any issues with it other than sacrificing the rapid choke from a shorter reduction train via KR? Thank you for helping me and my noobiness to spinner builds :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2014 05:14PM by Conner Pascual.

1) You can make any KR "Group" cover any distance you wish once you leave NGC and KR rules behind, they will always create a straight path for line flow (if you stick with a referenced "group"). That said, the 27X method will almost always give you the longest reduction train of any of the methods. If your goal is to push the choke as far out as possible, 27X may be your best choice. Just pay attention to where the stripper falls relative to the "power" section of the rod - too far out and you may lose a little power in the butt section, too close and "bunching" becomes an issue on the cast. NGC might be the best compromise and should provide a choke point between 27X and KR.

3) 20H 10H 7M (not L) and a 5.5L to a 4.5 KB choke followed by three more 4.5KB and then KT to the top.

FYI, the 7L reference in our catalog is an error. All of the groups with a 7L should be changed to a 7M except the D: layout under Conventional Rods 30-50lb Braid which should remain a 7L

Also under Conventional Rods to 20lb Braid, the 6M in the C: layout should be a 6L. Under Conventional Rods 30-50lb Braid the C: layout should end with 6L as well.

Sorry for the misinformation. We noticed the error only recently

Thanks Jim,

I started off with the 27x and table edge, but upon further reading of KR builds I scrapped it and followed what I read. It's good to know that I can always fall back on that if necessary, I think when I did do the 27x method I ended up pulling the choke point towards the reel anyway. So 27x results in the farthest choke position, and NGC (using GPS or table edge?) should place the choker between a KR and 27x determined choke.

Ahhh, I thought that was an error. When I first ordered the grouping I thought mudhole sent me the wrong guides as the 6M was higher than the 7L lol. Well I may need to order more 4.5 kbs, only got 2 for now.

Jim,
Your theory seems to make a lot of sense. In fact in my case the 27x method was placing the choke too far up, while the strict KR concept interpretation was placing all reduction guides on the bottom piece with the choke (KB) right on the ferrule. I suspected that what you said (re line touching ferrule edge) might be a problem, and also I didn't like all reduction guides on the bottom piece. So in the end I opted to move the choke further up and put the last reduction guide (KL5.5H in my case) on the 2nd piece right on the ferrule, thereby solving both problems IN THEORY. I still have to test cast as I'm missing a couple of KTs and waiting for them to be shipped :(

Conner,
You're right ...in the end one can settle for the conventional NGC rather than the KR. After all KR is only an extension of the NGC and the rationale is to use the smallest guides possible and to choke as early as possible, but it's always up to the rod builder to decide that position based on (a) the blank, (b) the reel size and upsweep, and (c) the line / braid application. That's how I see it anyway! Please update us on the other test casts results. I will do the same.

Thanks Allstair,

How long is the blank you're building on? Reel and line? Just asking out of curiosity. One of my earlier builds had the 5.5 right on the ferrule as well, followed by the first kb (4.5). I've found I keep resorting to a 3 guide reduction, it just seems to look better with the runner spacing rather than having 4 reduction guides with shorter spacing. If that makes sense.

I think I've ordered evey reduction guide size possible lol, got a 12H and a 5.5H coming in the mail. My latest 3-guide reduction looks fine from the tests, I'll either modify it or resort to a traditional NGC build (building along a straight edge from choke to spool). Thanks for the reassurance, I believe in the high frame small guide concept and wouldn't go any other way. For what it's worth, this rod in its current application won't be for large fish. More like juvenile trevally (1-3 pounds) and other various reef fish out here in Hawaii.

Please update us with your build as well, I'm always interested in seeing what others are building :)

Hi Conner,

I'm building a light spinning rod for Seabass (I live and fish in Malta in the middle of the Mediterranean). It's 8.5 feet and to be combined with a Daiwa 2500 reel (Caldia or Certate). Line is exclusively braid up to 12lb, possibly 15lb. In our case we value casting range and fast action mostly ... the Seabass are usually between 1 and3 pounds but we also get a lot of strikes from Barracudas and so the rod shouldn't be too light.

As I said, the KR concept was throwing all 3 reduction guides (16H, 8H and 5.5H) in the bottom section with the first KB right on the ferrule. This is because of the length of the blank and the high upsweep of the reel. I don't like having all 3 reduction guides in the bottom section, so I moved away the KB and placed my last reduction guide (the 5.5H) in the top piece right on the ferrule. In theory and visibly the rod looks better this way, but obviously I cannot know before I test cast. I'm waiting for some KTs to arrive by mail and then I will test cast both this positioning and the conventional KR positioning with all 3 reduction guides on the bottom piece. Will keep you informed.