I've yet to build a spiral wrap rod, but have read all I could find in BI's of Rod Maker & Rod Crafters+ Archives. As soon as I can get moving from a lower back injury I'll get started. I've read so much and taken so many notes that I'm into Info overload I think. I'm going to give something a try that I'm sure you more experienced wrappers have already explored but I'm going to try to explain it here,as quickly as I can and hope I can get some yeas or nays.
I have my own antiquated method for initially placing guides and since it has served me well so far I'll continue to use it so I won't bore you all with that part.
After load testing for smooth line flow from guide to guide I'm going to load the blank again.heavily. but with a pull in the direction I want the spiral to go ; I'm a lefty so the spiral will be to the left since I crank with my right hand. What I'm hoping will happen is that the side load will slide the guides into the their most natural position for the spiral. In other words let the rod,reel, line load, tell me where it wants the guides to be in the spiral. I've always believed that if you let it the blank & the parts that go on it will at least give the builder some "guidance" as to where things should be if we'll just take the time to pay attention.
The way I figure it the worst that can happen is that I'll be wrong and there'll be nothing earth shaking in that.
My guides,I think, will be Alconite New concept, BMNAG & BUNAG.
It's my opinion that the New Concept can be applied to a conventional and have figured out a way to set them up, I think. Again the worst I can be is wrong. Would appreciate your thoughts,experiences.Thanks to all in advance. Warren

If you cast with your left hand you should make the spiral with the guides to the right. I know that it sounds backwards but it works and makes sense when you consider how the line comes off the spool when you cast as either a right or left handed person. Once you try the spiral you will love it. I have most of my rods are spiral and most of my customers like it also. if you have any other questions drop me a line.

George

There is also a contingent that says you should spiral your guides to the same side the reel handle is on so that when you lie your rods on a boat deck they will lie flat and rest upon the guides.

Personally, I take mine to the opposite side but this is really more of a personal preference.

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Warren, your idea for guide placement based on the curve of the rod and the path of the line will work just fine. A couple of points to consider when placing the guides, first the line should run as straight as possible from the reel to the tip of the rod, second the line should make as small an angle as possible as it passes through the guides, and third it should touch only the top or bottom of each guide when in any fishing position. A forth point that might be considered is that there should be no line chatter or vibration as the line flows through the guides. As a general rule, if you spine the rod and feel both sides of the spine, one side will feel sharp or some what like you had rolled it up against a stop and the other will feel some what round. The most effective spine will be located on the outside of the curve. In order to "lock the rod in" or to eliminate any torque when casting or retreving set the reel seat on the inside of the curve and spiral the line to the outside of the curve going around the side of the rod which seemed more round when it was spined. This will provide a balancing effect, with a little more presure being placed on the side of the rod with the rounded feel. Tape the guides on the rod and with the reel place hold the rod an upright position. Tie the line to a stationary object an flex the rod as if playing a fish. The rod should roll to a position where the tip guides face the stationary object and eill be "locked in". Now turn the rod to a casting position where the guides are facing away from the stationary object and flex the rod as if you were casting. The guides should remain 180 degrees away from the stationary object and should not twist in either direction, in other words be "lock in". If they do not, something is not correct, go back and check the spine again as this is the area most likely to be off. As far as concept guides and spacing, more guides will cast better than less and will "lock the rod in" better also.

Warren and all,

As per usual, Don Morton always can explain the setup for the spiral wrap to a Tee. One only needs to see first hand his demonstration of the common sense and mathematics of his approach that works and applies to any individual blank and its particular characetistics and application. I use to think the spiral only made sense for the heavier lifting or trolling rods, but am convinced of the ideal application for all sorts of levelwind or casting rods.
From heavy freshwater Sturgeon custom rods to smallmouth bass and walleye rods, this setup works very well.
Just a couple things to add about tweaking and such, relates to the choosing of components and lines. Some lines can remarkablly perform through the spiral arrangement (as they would also in conventional) and also consider the hardness choices for heavy braid lines. With some of the newer ring materials also can find the casting performance improving by the slicker and harder rings such as I've found just playing around with ceremet or the more reasonalbe priced TiCh or Tigold (zirconia) ring. When all these things match up with the ideal reel weight for the blank, then it becomes truly a custom setup that justifies all the fuss.

There are modifications to the spiral wrap with some guide placement as to angles and number, but understanding the fundamentals no one could probably explain it better than the expert teaching by Don. I always can appreciate his knowledge contibuted to rodbulders. Thanks again for the more explanation. Always something to be learned.

Rich

I'm not so sure about this. The purpose of the spiral wrap, or at least one of the purposes is to give the rod stability. And it will do that no matter where you put the spine.

Plus, no one I know of casts a casting rod with the reel 'up'. Most all of us will turn the reel so that the handle faces upwards which puts the casting plane 90 degrees to the retrieving plane. I place my spine so it is in line with my casting plane, not retrieving plane. That means my effective spine is 90 degrees off from the guides. It is 'locked' in anyway though due to the guides being on the bottom of the rod. I have never had one try to twist on me and have watched the tip area and it has never twisted while fighting a fish.

I think if you put the guides on or opposite the spine you will find that casting accuracy is reduced as that is not the plane most people cast in. Maybe I'm wrong but this works well for me.

Come to think of it that is how we cast. Reel handles up, guides 90 degress to the side. So if you want the spine to work on the cast it has to be 90 degress to the guides. I hadn't thought about that before now. I'll build my next one like that and try it.

I hadn't given it much thought either but you know we do cast in one plane and retrieve and fight fish in an entirely different one. I may try setting up a rod that way this winter. It does make sense!

hmmm very intersting and notable point about the spine and casting. my observations have been that most Australian anglers anyway never put the reel handle in the fully vertical position Id say more 45 degrees on a vertical cast. some methods of flat casting yes 90 degrees may be the angle in question but then your looking for accuracy here not all out distance so the spine isnt a particularly important factor IMHO. Id also be reluctant to put it off spine on a roberts wrap as the whole point of this design is rod stability and an off spine would reduce this capacity slightly. personally I feel that a bit to much emphasis is put on spines. sure it plays its part but when the overriding factor in distance casting at least is the reel and lure weight any effect the spine can contribute is often minor. Finally, though I havent built a lot of roberts wraps as they arent all that popular down under wouldnt it make sense to have the wrap turning inside and not outside relative to the casting hand?
ie left handed casters the guides wrap to the right and viseaversa for right handed casters. I would have thought it a bit more accurate having the guides more in line with the anglers center but then maybe I should shutup and go think about it a bit more.

Allen glover

Moving the spine off the plane of the guides on a spiral wrapped rod will NOT reduce stability. The spine has nothing to do with stability. Guide location alone determines if a rod will be stable. I know at one time it was thought that the spine could be used to make a rod stable but I think that idea has been debunked pretty much over the past few years. In fact I think the whole point of the spiral wrap is to make the rod stable in a fight. With the guides on the bottom, the rod is stable no matter where you put the guides.

I also think these guys above are talking more about bass casting rods than surf rods when they talk about the reel handles pointing up. That seems to be the way that these reels are designed to be cast. I cannot imagine how the reel handles appear on large surf rods as there seem to be so many different surf casting techniques.

I spiral my guides away from the reel handle. I am not sure it makes any difference, that's just the way I have always done it. Old habits die hard I guess.

I don't know about you guys but when I have fished in some of the popular spots on a river in the Pacific Northwest you had better learn to cast with the reel up and not the handle and cast over the top since you are literally standing shoulder to shoulder and you would be thrown in the river if you bopped the guy next to you plus ruin your or his rod.

Kerry

william

I may have been a bit vague but I think you may have misinterpreted what I said. I was always refering to std "bass/plug rods" or what we ( erroneously)know as baitcasters.
In Aust this overhead type of rod is primarily used
for accuracy to drop plugs into or under tight cover.
the cast is usually flat with the rod horizontal or at best a slight angle. The only occasion the rod is lifted anywhere above head height is when distance is needed over accuracy and the lure is litterally pelted as far as it can go.

hope that goes some way to clearing things up a bit.

Allen

In most instances, whether you are casting sidearm or over the top, the direction of cast is in line with the reel handle. Obviously, not everyone casts this way, but probably 90% of those who are proficient with a baitcasting reel do so. To be honest, this is something I have not thought about enough but it warrants some more thought.

Because rod stability is totally dependent upon guide location and has nothing to do with spine, it may well be true that the best set-up for baitcasting (conventional/level-wind) rods is with the spine on the bottom when the reel is held with the handle facing up. That would give you the best tracking on the cast. The spiral wrap system would still give you perfect stability when the rod in under load.

The only other thing to think about is the effect of aerodynamic drag when casting any such rod, spiral wrapped or not, with the standard casting stroke of having the reel handle facing up. This puts the guides into a situation where they increase the frontal drag of the rod when casting. How much does this affect rod speed? Maybe not enough for you to notice in the hand, but it will make a difference. I suppose this is another argument for using the smallest possible guides.

Again, I had not really considered that the casting set-up is somewhat different from every other type rod - you cast in one plane and retrieve in another.

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Tom, William et al

Im interested in your theories that spines dont affect stability of rods during the cast. I get your point in the whole and spine placement has an effect, (which is usually over ridden by other factors) when the rod is well loaded up with a fish but in overhead casting rods like bait casters, the rods natural tendency is to want to always twist to the spot of least resistance under even minor loads. This characteristic obviously provides the basis for all the standard spine placement theories but im wondering if it would want to also do this to some degree at least, when the rod is loaded up during the cast. It may not be all that noticable to the angler but it may cause a bit of uneccessary wobble during the cast that could be eliminated with some novel spine placement like the 90 degree theory discussed here. what do you think? its not a feasable idea for production rods as it doesnt take into acount handedness but certainly one worth exploring on customs or test rods. On the issue of casting though Ive been thinking about how the hand reacts when casting a baitcaster. maybe its just my style but Im coming to the conclusion that their is a lot of wrist roll involved to get the "flick" needed.
whatever it is all this talk is certainly worth looking at further. Even into the arena of light threadline outfits especially ones used in tight cover situations as this cast is
also often at 90 degrees to the handle.

Allen Glover