I am setting up a XMG 50 LP 842 spinning rod. I have a Shimano Symetre 2500 reel with 8lbs co-polomer line. For guides I have BYAG 25, 16, 10 and for runners Batson micro 3. I setup the rod as per the article on the 27x method. I wasn't getting the casting distance I wanted. I am a few yards short of what I want. I switch to 3.5 micros for runners with no difference. I switched the #25 guide for a #30 and adjusted the spacing so the reducing guides still lined up when you looked through the center of them all. It also made no difference might be a foot or two shorter distance.

What other options do I have besides ordering even larger running guides? Or am I just at the max range of this rod with that particular lure? Thanks for your input.

Patrick Rutledge

you can go with larger running guides, but I don't believe it will give you any more distance and in fact will most likely reduce it further.

Your distance or lack thereof is most likely having to do with the blank and maybe the lightness of the weight you are throwing.
You might could try
25-10-5 3.5 then 3's this is a good setup that has performed quite well on several different blanks. but out side of things being a tad lighter it may not improve on what you have, none the less it is the setup I suggest for the best results.

Patrick,
I doubt that you have any thing wrong with your guide size and spacing setup.

But if you want to check, and if you don't have larger running guides, just leave off the running guides and do some casting with just the first three guides and the tip. Let us know what you find with that set up.

You could also just go to a single #3 about 1/2 way between the size 10 guide and the tip. Of course, this would be just for doing test casting.

Normally, once you get the line running straight, the size of the running guides become irrelevelent.

Take care
Roger

p.s.
Out of curiosity - before doing anything, add 1/2 oz weight to your casting plug and restest.
It is quite possible that you simply have too much drag in the reel setup to get the line off the reel to your desired distance - with the casting weight that you are using. I doubt that your initial guide size and setup is causing your distance issues.

If you think that your guides are causing a problem, just put on about 300 feet of 4 lb light mono line. This will eliminate any potential line drag that you are currently getting with your 8 lb line. I normally find several yards of casting distance different between the use of 8 lb and 4 lb mono line on most rods.

As another test, you can also put on a size 4000 or 6000 sized reel, or one of the large reel Bass Pro, or US reels reel. These reels have considerably larger spools, which have the effect of reducing line spool drag and resistance. Also, the use of larger spools also means that there are fewer total loops of line to come off a spool for a given casting distance. This is the reason that the folks who do distance casting will often use very large spooled reels.

What is the weight of the lure you're attempting to cast?


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Notice what you did.. you upsized your guides and got no improvement in distance. Try going the other way.

I would challenge you to try a BYAG 16, BLVAG 8, BLAG 6 and then your 3s.

I'd also say to think outside the 27x box, but that's going to be frowned on.

"Normally, once you get the line running straight, the size of the running guides become irrelevelent. " I disagree. But I am being cranky like normal.

To Tom's point... lure weight and desired distance would be helpful info.

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Also the line being used Some will work better then others

Bill - willierods.com

Alex,

Not sure why you would say that because 27X is already outside the box and if you'll take a few minutes and look at previous posts on the subjects you'll find that I've said more than once that this factor was intended to be something that would work with the broadest range of lines and reels possible. I've repeatedly mentioned that you can always tweak the location of the choker guide for a specific line or reel combination and perhaps see some improvement.


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Patrick,

There will be a sweet spot for any rod when it comes to the lure weight being cast. You may not be at that point yet, in which case switching the guide sizes around a little isn't going to make much difference.

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I am trying to cast a 1/16 jig and 4" ringworm. It is the lightest lure (and a favorite) that I will have to cast with this rod. The distance I can cast is 22-23 yards and I want to cast an extra 2-3 yards. This is for one particular spot that I fish from the river bank.

I tried the 25, 16, 10 setup I originally had but with no running guides as Roger suggested. It was no improvement over what I originally had with the runners attached. I will try some of the other suggested setup tonight hopefully after the kids are in bed.

Thanks for all the input.

Patrick Rutledge

Patrick,
If you're loading the rod for the cast and have to wait for the release you've reached the end of what that blank will deliver as far as energy. The blank energy transmission will become the controlling factor. If the lure weight you're casting is being accelerated by you faster than the rod can rebound that force it's maxxed out. To keep that from happening cast lure weights at the bottom of the range or below. Not quite as relaxing because you work harder and your timing has to be crisp.
If the lure weight is what you require and you're up to the timing requirements go for a stiffer blank.
If that is the blank you wish to use you might also eliminate 1 or 2 of the runners and replace the tip top with a lighter non braced model. Reposition the runners further away from the tip to reduce drag and inertial losses. That will buy you a little more energy if all you need is a little.

Eugene Moore



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2010 06:45PM by Eugene Moore.

Lure rang on that blank is 1/4 - 1/2 oz so we are talking - 4/16 - 8/16 oz. So your trying to cast a 1/16 oz gig even with a 4" worm what about maybe 1/8 oz total ?? Correct me but I think the rod is too much for the lure weight

And is not loading enough

Try adding some split shot and cast till it feels good and you get what you - may want

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2010 07:07PM by bill boettcher.

Patrick,

I think you have almost certainly confirmed that you're not in the sweet spot - that rod blank wasn't intended to cast to its maximum potential with such a light rig.

You have two options. First, switch to a blank that is more closely rated to cast what you're wanting to cast.

Second, and I almost hate to even suggest this, however, if you will put larger running guides on the rod, size 8's, and increase the number of them you're using, you may actually increase your distance. This is because the additional weight will tend to preload the rod and cause it to flex more deeply on the backcast. The resulting inertia might propel your light rig a bit farther.

However, there will be a penalty paid in a slightly less responsive rod.

Again, I don't like it, but it's something you can try while you're playing with this stuff.

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Tom - in reality, 27x is just another box.

That wasn't aimed at anyone/thing in particular other than the fact it mainly gets run up the pole most times when discussions come up - "use the 27x". Sure it works. I've used it in the past. Any "system" or box is great for people who want to be told where to put something and they measure and are done. To my point - in the original post, the poster felt it was important to make sure everyone knew he set up right by the 27x method... chances are had he not, he would have been asked "did you use the 27x"?

Sorry you felt you needed to defend that. Not the intent.

Yeah, that rod may be a little stout for what you want to do. Just because you fall in the "range" of lures, doesn't mean it will perform great on the extreme ends.

The other thing you need to consider... that lure may only go so far anyway. It's not the most aerodynamic and it doesn't have a lot of weight to combat wind/air resistance.

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One thing I haven’t seen addressed is what tip do you have on this rod? I had the same blank with nearly the exact same guide setup, 25,16,8 YSG and 3.5 LSG running guides. I originally built it with a 3.5 LSG for the tip and it never cast very well until I replaced it with a BMCAT tip, then it was transformed completely.

Like others have already posted that blank is not really in its sweet spot with that little weight. In the XMG 50 range I would look at switching form a LSJ842 to a LP842, even though they are both rated for a 1/8oz low end the LP blank has a much lighter tip and should load better with that weight.

Parick,
My bad. I hadn't seen your post on lure weight and incorrectly assumed you had insufficient blank power.
The recommendations on reduction in number of guides and reducing the tip top weight still will apply. The only other options would be in reel selection and line weight. Larger spools reduce rotational speed and smaller lines reduce mass. You specifically stated these as fact so I didn't consider them originally.
How many guides are you running and where are they located from the tip. Fewer guides mean less friction and line contact. Positioning the guides further from the tip allows more of your cast energy to go to the lure increasing tip velocity and distance.
To increase rod loading and speed you might consider adding a bounce to the start of your cast to add an additional g of rod loading. Be forewarned as the tip speed increases so must the timing of your release point. If you're a young man you may have more on the tap. Us old guys can't think that fast or work that hard.

Eugene Moore

The rating on the rod from the Lamiglas website is 1/8-1/2 and I do realize that this is at best hitting the bottom weight in that range. This rod will also have to fish a variety of other lures as you can't have lots of rods while bank/wader fishing. If I can't get it to cast this one lure that far, then so be it. I will have to wade out a little bit or use a 1/8 jig and deal with the faster sink rate. It's just that this is a favorite lure and a favorite spot and if I could get the setup to work then I would like to do it. It is not worth adding size 8 guides as the sensitivity and weight I feel is more important. Thanks for the help guys. I will try some more guide configurations for the reducers. I think I might be at the max with this rod and lure combo, I just was looking for any extra ideas you guy would have on setting up the rod. I had really liked the idea of removing the runners as it lets you test one variable at a time. Thanks for the help all of you.

Patrick Rutledge

Eugene,

I have 8 guides plus a tip. 5 running guides and the 3 reducing guides. The running guides are about 4 3/4 inch spaced and each getting a little further spread as you move away from the tip but never exceeding 5 inches. As for the spacing of my reducing guides the #25 is about 20" from the reel face and the other two are spaced 7.5 and 8.5 inches apart (if I remember correctly).

I do put a bounce into my cast to get the distance I am. I am young, I never thought about the blessing that is when casting.

Patrick Rutledge

The NGC was pooh-poohed because it dared to challenge the Cone of Flight Theory. The 27X method was pooh-poohed because it dared to challenge the spool upsweep method. Both were outside the conventional box and therefore given a bit of a hard time.

If you read the article, then you know what it (27X) was designed to do (and which it does) and that I have stated many times that if you have a specific line and reel combination you might be able to better it for that specific combination. It is certainly not in any "box." I defend it only because some others have spread misinformation about it and what it was intended to be used for.

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I tried again with byag 25, 12, and blag 6 with no runners and it added maybe enough extra distance. I will try some other setups in the morning as my (VERY SUPPORTIVE) wife was getting tired of standing outside in the cold at the far side of the church parking lot across the street and looking for the lure each time I casted. Thanks for the help again.

Patrick Rutledge

Your problem is, you can't fish the rod like that.

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LOL, I know but I was going off of Roger Wilson's post near the top and doing this only for testing purposes. I will try it with the runners again tomorrow as well as Alex's suggested guide layout and any other's that are posted or come to mind. Thanks,

Patrick Rutledge