I
nternet gathering place for custom rod builders
  • Custom Rod Builders - This message board is provided for your use by the sponsors listed on the left side of the page. Feel free to post any question, answers or topics related in any way to custom building. When purchasing products please remember those who sponsor this board.

  • Manufacturers and Vendors - Only board sponsors are permitted and encouraged to promote and advertise products on the board. You may become a sponsor for a nominal fee. It is the sponsor fees that pay for this message board.

  • Rules - Rod building is a decent and rewarding craft. Those who participate in it are assumed to be civilized individuals who are kind and considerate in their dealings with others. Please respond to others in the same fashion in which you would like to be responded to. Registration IS NOW required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting. Posts which are inflammatory, insulting, or that fail to include a proper name and email address will be removed and the persons responsible will be barred from further participation.

    Registration is now required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting.
SPONSORS

2015 EXPO!
Common Cents Info
CCS Database
Int. Custom Rod Symbol
RM Library Program
All American Guides
American Tackle
Angler’s Envy
Angler’s Roost
Anglers Rsrc - Fuji
BatsonRainshadowALPS
Best Rods Center Poland
Bingham Enterprises
BLAF coming soon
Cork 4U
CTS Fly Rod Blanks
Custom Fly Grips LLC
Custom Labeling System
DBlue Fishing
DC Tackle
Decal Connection
Dons Tackle
DONART
Flex Coat Co.
Get Bit Outdoors
Hook & Hackle
HYDRA
Mickels Custom Rods
Midwest Rod & Reel
Mud Hole Tackle
MHX Rod Blanks
North Fork Composites
Pacific Bay
ProProducts
Reelseatblanks.com
Renzetti Inc.
Riley Rods
Rodbuilder Supplies
RodDancer
Rodgeeks
RodMaker Magazine
RodMaker Magazine Blog
Schneiders Rod Shop
St Croix Rods
Sunrise Tackle
Swampland
Tackleworks
The Rod Room
The RodWorks
Trondak U-40
Utmost Enterprises
VisualWRAP/VisualWEAVE
ZipCast

Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Jeff Wilson (65.197.28.---)
Date: January 06, 2010 11:10AM

Hello, I have seen several posts regarding the specific sizes of micro guides most are using from butt to tip, but I was hoping someone could point me to the actual spacing measurements you all are using for micros. I have searched the forum and came up blank. If someone knows of a post I would appreciate a point to it please.

I'm building a 7' flipping stick, spiral wrapped with 2 bumper guides. 6, 5, 4, and 3's to the tip. I realize doing my own static test would answer this question, but I am not set up to do that just yet and based on some comments on other posts here I have reservations about buying the chart that is available for this. Seeing that many of you have built an identically set up rod to what I am planning to build, would anyone mind sharing what spacings you have used on a similar rod previously?

Thank you very much for your help!
Jeff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Barry Kneller (---.)
Date: January 06, 2010 11:16AM

You cannot have two "bumper" guides on a spiral wrapped rod. Most likely, you have a more traditional spiral type rod with two "transition" guides. There is a difference between a bumper guide and a transition guide.

If this is what you are doing, I would look at regular Revolver Rod type spiral configuration and space the guides as you normally would. Due to the light weight of the very small guides and much lower frame, you can use a few more than normal and not pay any weight penalty. You will not be able to completely keep the line off the blank with the micros but no matter, all is fine. I would go 0, 60, 120 and 180 in a span of about 12" and then progressively space seven more micros along the remaining length.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2010 11:18AM by Barry Kneller.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Andrew Metzger (---.afspc.af.mil)
Date: January 06, 2010 11:19AM

How can't you do a static placement? I use a rod holder in the dirt outside with a reel on the rod strung with a small washer to hold tension on the line, a gatorade bottle attached to the tip to add weight as needed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Jeff Wilson (65.197.28.---)
Date: January 06, 2010 11:29AM

Thank you Barry. My apologies for using the wrong terminology. You are exactly correct, I was referring to "transition" guides. And yes I was meaning placement at 0, 60, 120 and 180 as you suggest. Thank you for clarifying.

One question, are you suggesting I use a normal 7 ft rod spacing chart, placing the butt guide 50 inches from the tip then spacing per your recommendation, transition within the next 12", even on the 7 from there? Or is there a difference as to the placement of the butt guide on a revolver type rod?

Thanks for your help!
Jeff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: January 06, 2010 01:15PM

Jeff,
Very simply, when setting up the spacing for a guide on any rod, simply place a guide anywhere that it is necessary to have the line follow the bend of the loaded blank.
Ultimately, that is all that is necessary.

For most spiral wrapped rods, I use a guide spacing that is about the same as the spacing that I would use for a spinning rod blank.
This works pretty well for micro guides, since the bulk of the guide will be on the underside of the blank, and thus no issues about having the line rub on the blank.

One thing to consider is the orientation of the first two or three guides on a spiral wrap, when using more than one guide to rotate the line around the rod.

In particular, you may find that the best orientation of the first guide will be something other than 0 degrees. Many folks simply place the first guide at 0 degrees and call it good.

However, I think you may find that if you simply place the first guide at 0 degrees, that you may find that you have line stacking issues on one side of the reel or the other during line retreive.

Tape the guides on the rod, and then do some line out, line in tests. In particular, spool off 20-50 feet of line, and then, when having the line under slight tension - retrieve the line. Verify a couple of things:

1. Verify that the line is essentially running cleanly through all of the guides - with minimal touching on any of the guides. If necessary, either move a guide up or down the blank, and or change the size of the guide, and or slightly rotate the guide.

2. Verify that the line does not stack up on one side of the reel or the other. With the last many spiral wraps that I have done, I have found that most of the time, I end up rotating the butt guide between 5-10 degrees, in the direction of the guide spiral. I have found this to be necessary to prevent the line from wanting to pile up on one side of the reel during retrieve.

Good luck
Roger

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Barry Kneller (---.)
Date: January 06, 2010 02:58PM

I would not use a chart. Set your butt guide where you determine it needs to be and on the 0 axis. Then move up 4" and set a guide at 60 degrees. 4" more and set one at 120 degrees. Then 4" more and set that one at 180 degrees. Then do a static distribution test to set seven more between that first 180 degree guide and the tip, along the bottom of the rod. You will have a total of eleven guides plus a tip. Sounds like a lot but with those very tiny and lightweight guides it will be just fine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Steve Gardner (---.nc.res.rr.com)
Date: January 06, 2010 03:18PM

Quote:
“You will not be able to completely keep the line off the blank with the micros but no matter, all is fine

I'm sorry but that is an absolutely incorrect statement.
On none of my spiral Micro guide setups, does the line touch the blank

Jeff
First thing I suggest you do is to go with a larger size for your stripper guide. If you are going to be flipping with this rod and use a smaller/lower framed guide the every time you go to grab your line you will also be grabbing at the blank. A larger higher framed guide will provide line to blank clearance permitting finger space. Depending on the size of your hands I would go with and 10 to 12mm.

If you are just going to be casting with the rod then a 6mm do work fine.

What are the ratings for the blank you are using?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2010 03:32PM by Steve Gardner.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Jeff Wilson (65.197.28.---)
Date: January 06, 2010 05:31PM

Thanks to all who posted a reply.

I understand the concepts of static testing, how to do it, etc. I just haven't built/acquried the tools to do it yet. I am a hobby builder and have just relied on the published charts to date, but getting into micros more now and want to set up this rod correctly. I was just hoping that someone out there who's built a 7' flipping stick, spiral wrapped with micros might be willing to share something like "my butt guide was X inches from the tip. I could probably take it from there. Ideally if anyone has full measurements for this kind of set up they are willing to share from a previous build I would really appreciate it. Otherwise I'll have to do my own static test on it.

The blank I am building on is a Batson RX8, XMB843.

Roger, thank you for the tip on using the spinning rod as the pattern. That makes sense. Thanks for the reminder to offset the butt guide a bit to prevent stacking. I've seen that before and will remember to do that.

Steve, thanks for the tip on the larger butt guide on the flipping stick. I remember seeing the post on that recently. Good idea.

Thanks to everyone for the tips, always great information shared here.

Thanks for your help!
Jeff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.fll.bellsouth.net)
Date: January 06, 2010 06:01PM

Jeff, with all due respect I think you are over estimating what is required to do a static test. A foot or two of PVC pipe and a couple of pipe clamps along with a soda bottle or mop bucket are all you need. It works a whole lot better than any chart or advice from others. The main reason why is everyone uses a different reel placed in a different location with different brand/style of guides.

As they say "the devil is in the details". It is very easy and cheap to do so don't short change yourself. This is intended as a friendly kick in the tail, something I often need, and not to find fault:)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Duane Richards (---.nwrknj.east.verizon.net)
Date: January 06, 2010 06:06PM

Jeff,

Your email is hidden but here is one of mine (MB844) from tip down and it works VERY well 4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-6.5-7-8

One fishing trip moved it to one of my all time favorite rods.

This rod is built on a slow spiral style with offset butt guide, the offset goes to the same side as the spiral and is roughly 10 degrees offset.

DR

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Steve Gardner (---.nc.res.rr.com)
Date: January 06, 2010 06:12PM

Jeff here is another good starting point for that blank and way to do the static test
Tip
7cm
8cm
9cm
10cm
11cm
13cm
15cm
19cm
24 cm
But will still need some tweaking

No tools required to do a static test that you don’t already y possess.

Tape up guides
Put reel on rod run line through guides with about 3 ft of line hanging down tie on ½ to ¾ oz jig
Take another line 4 to 5 ft long tie open loop on each end.
Loop one end around door knob the other around rods tip (do not tie down first line under loop.)
Pull rod back at different pressures to check line for consistency of angle and readjust anything that looks out of place (to much angle or less then the other angles between guides.
While doing a spiral if you hold the rod upside down so line is pulled towards the blank, you can use the lines clearance from blank to see what needs adjusting.


[www.rodbuilding.org]

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Jeff Wilson (---.kc.res.rr.com)
Date: January 06, 2010 09:07PM

Thanks again to all for the information!

Russell, no offense taken, you're absolutely right. It's time I learned how to static test.

Duane, thanks for the validation and info!

Steve, that is exactly what I was looking for! Much appreciated! That will get me started and serve as a guideline for when I do my static test on it. I just needed something to go off of so I can be confident I wasn't doing it wrong.

Thanks again to all who posted! I really appreciate all the advice.

Thanks!
Jeff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Steven Loughery (---.trapac.com)
Date: January 07, 2010 01:17AM

Hey Jeff,
I thought I'd throw a static test tool idea your way. Screw a piece of PVC to the side of your work area. One of the easiest tools you'll ever make. I find it MUCH easier than measuring, and twice as important. When I first started out, I was looking for some Magic Spacing chart, thinking that it was my only hope. You can do a much better job yourself.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Michael Sledden (---.176.42.254.ptr.us.xo.net)
Date: January 07, 2010 07:35AM

Just one thing more about doing your own static testing. I saw an example that proved to me that even for identicle blanks, you need to do a seperate static test for each blank. The example shown was this person had 10 of the same blanks and just by holding the blanks from the tips and just letting the weight of the blanks flex them, each one flexed differently. So to me, each blank was different even though it was suppose to be the same.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Mike Barkley (---.nap.wideopenwest.com)
Date: January 07, 2010 10:34AM

You might be overthinking it! Quick and easy!!! I have a cheap rodholder on the end of my work bench. I can place the rodholder at any angle I want, stick the rod in it and static test. Whole process MIGHT take 5-10 minutes tops!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Jeff Wilson (65.197.28.---)
Date: January 07, 2010 10:47AM

Thanks Steven, Mike and Mike! I really appreciate the suggestions and votes of confidence!

Mike S., that's really interesting about the same blanks flexing differently. I definitely need to start static testing then.

Thanks to all for the suggestions on what you use on your benches to do this. Much appreciated!

Thanks!
Jeff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Micro Guide Spacing
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: January 08, 2010 02:11PM

Take a look at the photo: [www.rodbuilding.org]

The device used to quickly place blanks in an adjustable fixture for analysis and comparative purposes was omitted from this photo for a reason.

Backlash Tools will post a picture this weekend -

The fixture is quite innovative and easy to utilize -

The fixture will be available at the ICRBE

Options: ReplyQuote


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.