I have seen where at least one manufacturer is discontinuing the M style guides. this is a single foot higher frame guide than the normal single foot guides. i know everything is based on sales, but as the trend for higher frames and lighter guides i wonder about this. is there a new guide coming out that will be a higher frame with smaller rings? i think this is something many of us seem to be looking for. maybe something new will be revealed at the show. i don't think i am alone in wanting higher framed guides in the smaller rings.

To all guide manufacturers: is there something new on the horizon to meet this new demand?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2008 10:14PM by john timberlake.

John, I talked to Bob at custom tackle about a week ago and he said that he was going to source them himself if need be. I too would like to see the smaller guides with a little more height in the 8's and 10's I really like the smaller butt guides on spinning rods and would like to play with the 10's and smaller, but run out of height with what's available.

John and others that have either been using or have just started using the "M" style guide. Yes, they have been dis-continued from Batson/Forecast, as a regular stocked item. I have spoke with both Bill and karry about this issue. These guides have really started to become more popular lately, as being used as butt guides for spinning rods when using the "Micro Guide Set-Up", due to the height they stand away from the rod blank. Meaning you can use a smaller ring guide for the butt guide of a spinning rod, with great results, due to the added, extra height the "M" series guides offer. Do not worry about the availablity, as I have spoke with both Bill and Karry and even though the guides are being dis-contineud as a stocked item from Batson Enterprises, they will continue to "Special Order" these guides for me and I will continue to keep them on hand. If any of you are emplementing the "Micro Guide Set-Up" for spinning rods and incorporating a smaller butt guide and other smaller guides in the butt areas than you would normally use, you are missing out. It does take some tweaking to arrange the spacings of the set-up, compared to what you have been doing on past rods, but if you want to reduce wieght in the tip, why not reduce the wieght of the entire guide system, from butt to tip. I have built spining rods with as small as a size 10 butt guide and when set-up properly, it works amazing well. My son Hunter wanted to build a spinning rod with the newer "Micro Set-Up" for spinning, after seeing a rod built by Pat Vinzant that had inspired him to do so. So that we could compare apples to apples, I got him to go along with the idea of building on a 6 ft. blank that we had already built, where we had used the newer, now old, guide concept system, using a 25, 16, 8 and the rest 6's as running guides. He used the same blank with the same handle and used a High 10, standard 8, a 6 fly and then all 3's to the tip. To be fair, we used the same Shimano Saros 2500 spinning reel, loaded with 10 lb. braid, on both rods for our casting tests. Guess what not only does the smaller guide set-up out cast the larger guide set-up, but it does by a large margin of distance, each and every time. By comapring these rods, as apples to apples, there is no speculation to this matter. The proof is in the pudding and I have two rods built that have convinced me of using the smaller "Micro Set-Up" from butt to tip, if the build of the rod will allow you to do so. Please notice that I did say, "If the build of the rod, for application it will be used for, will allow you to do so". Hunter also purposely tied a 8 foot, 10 lb. flouro leader into the braid, so that the knot would be wound on to the spool and we could compare how well the know would come off the spool of the reel and pass thru all the guides. Guess what, no ill affects, the line rockets thru the guides, with no loss of distance. We then decided to check these rods, using P line Floroclear, which is a copolymer and flurocarbon blend. The P line Floroclear is a soft line that is about 30% smaller than other brands of mono that are of the same size pound test. We loaded a fresh spool of line on to the extra spool that came with the Shimano Saros and test cast both rods again. The smaller guide set-up still outcast the larger guide set-up by a large margin of distance, with the Floroclear, each and every time. The Floroclear did not beat out the braid for distance, but came very close. The rod is a 6 ft., fast tip, medium action rod that we use here on the Duck River for Smallmouth Bass fishing, when dragging plastics. For the longest, I was a skeptic of using the smaller guides all the way on a spinning rod, but now I am true believer.

Bob McKamey -- Custom Tackle Supply

Bob, I think that post will make the announcement at the depot lound and very clear!

I hope you know just how many have been waiting for that vaildation -

The Miro Train For Spinning Town is now leaving the station -

ALL ABOARD!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2008 02:13PM by Bill Stevens.

Somebody show us some factory tip tops that MATCH micro's......I think thats the next step.

DR

One key issue that I do want to stress, is the set-up when when using the smaller guides from butt to tip. Properly, dialed in set-up of the guides is the key to success. You need to "Make Sure" you will be using the same reel when setting the guides, as will be fished with the rod. The distance of locating the butt guide is very critical. On spinning rods, all my butt guide measurements are from the lip of the spool. Why measure from any where else? Afterall, that is where the line travels from to the butt guide. Place the butt guides as far from teh lip of the spool, that will be allowed, without line-slap on the rod blank. Another key issue that I really never paid much attention to, that my mentor, Pat Vinzant brought to my attention, is some spools come out straight from the reel and run parrelell with the rod blank and then there are other reels that have a slight tilt to the spool. This creates a slightly different angle when the line travels from the reel to the butt guide. I will have to double check, but I do believe on the rod I have made metnion of, the butt guide was 19-1/2" from the spool lip. Here again, that measurement is not concrete for all set-ups. It just happened to be where that size guide and that size reel, worked out on that particular blank. I am sure that I will think of more to add, as we build more and more of these type rods. I would be glad to discuss these smaller guide set-ups and what I have encountered so far, if you want to call me at 931-684-6164. The more I start talking about the set-ups, the wheels in my mind start turning and remember things to add. I can truly say that I have been overwhlmed at how well these newer set-ups have worked. I am glad that Pat Vinzant inspired my son Hunter enough, that he built these rods. I had been counting out and shipping all the tiny, micro's with my business, that I had just dreaded trying to build a rod with them!!

Bob McKamey -- Custom Tackle Supply

Bob

Many thanks. This information is exactly what I was hoping for when I asked for spinning rod help in M&M Vol 4. I will probably get started rebuilding my one and only spinner tomorrow. OOps I don't have the guides.

John Timberlake:

All the contributors to the Micro Guides threads on this board in the last few weeks would consider it a Christmas present to the micro builders from you if you choose to edit your post and change the title to M&Ms Volume 5 Spinning Rods. It will assist those using M&M in the Search mode to find information on spinning rods that has been sorely needed.

We all thank Bob for the input.

Sorry that I missed out on some of the other Micro strings of posts. I've had a gliche in my system that would not allow me to post for a while and finally figured it out. A lot of what I post is thru the works of other builders and then I implement my additons to help carry the projects further. I did leave out a couple of fellows earlier in my posts, that have also been instumental in my journey of the smaller guide projects in use today. Steve Gardner kept putting the bug in my ear enough, that I finally gave in and started carrying the guides at the shop. Thanks Steve, you helped bring us a long way fast. Then there is another fellow that has been a mentor of mine, since I was a very young boy. He's always been one of those rod builders that is thinking way outside of the box. Don Morton has been trying to drive in my head for the past several years, that we could use much smaller size guides on our rods and make a much more efficient rod. Even though he kept pressing that we use smalller guides from the butt to the tip, when possible, I would not accept it. This past May, at our Duck River Gathering, Don presented what I have considered to be one of the most comprehensive programs on how line travels thru guides. He especially targeted spinning rods. Don has spent countless hours filming line as it travels thru guides, with a super high speed camera. It is amzing what he has captured on film of how the line comes off a spinning reel and thru the butt guide and on out the tip of rod. The smaller butt guide, along with the micor running guides will tame the coils of the line. Thus creating a quicker, straighter and more controlled line path. Another issue that both Don and Tom Kirkman points out about using these smaller micro guides, is the reduced weight factor especially out on the tip area, where the rod will dampen much quicker and creates a more efficient rod. Now we have a group of M & M builders that just keep proving the use of smaller butt guides and Micro running guides, ain't just a sales gimmick. Thanks to all of you for your countless hours of testing, building and re-building. We have come a log way in a short period of time with this "New Concept". Keep up the fantastic work!! Thank You for allowing me to fall off into the middle of all this.

Bob McKamey -- Custom tackle Supply

MICRO TIP TOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are they EVER coming???????????????

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2008 07:22PM by Mike Barkley.

The present proven work arounds for the tip top problem should not deter anyone from building a micro rod with any tip diameter at this time. In the bass fishing world, one of the most important statements deals with hook set - If You Snooze You Loose! That statement also applies to building micro rods. If we get enough builders on the train someone will pony up with what is needed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2008 08:11PM by Bill Stevens.

Novice spinning rod builder question... how are you spacing the stripper guide using the smaller ringed guides? Especially if not using the taller framed guides...

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Alex's question is exactly what I would ask.

With conventional builds, it's easy for me to understand. So what about spinning, what do I do first?

Please bare in mind, I am not a spinning guy, but I do have good customers that insist that I build them one that is comperable to what I build conventionally (guides on top).

Bobby

Good question Alex!

I just built a 3S68MXF with a 20 mm BYAG butt guide about 20 inches from the spool lip. That is what worked out for the line path following the NGC guidelines (where the outside edge of the guide touches a straight line through the center of the spool). If I wanted to use a 16 mm butt guide I was looking at placing the guide even further out and that seemed too far to me.

Granted, I do not know if having a butt guide 24-inches away fromt he spool lip will make for problems (line slap and over-running of the guide) as I did not test cast the rod with a guide at this distance. I was satisfied with the stress test and line path using the 20, 12, 7 (Y-frames), with (5) 4mm BLAG choker and runners and 4mm sf tip top. Just eliminating the use of the 25 mm guide seemed a big step up to me in weight savings and sleekness of appearance.

I'd love to use a 16 ,12 or even a 10mm butt guide to reduce the weight as much a possible. Perhaps a little 'line slap' , while reducing casting performance to some degree, is compensated for with gains in rod efficiency through reduced weight. I'd love to see those films on line behavior!

Bottom line for me it looks like until a higher framed, smaller ringed guide is put out there I will use the 20mm butt guide on my builds.

Les

one thing Bob brought up and we discussed it the other day was the difference in the upswing of spinning reels. it varies from reel to reel. i have played with different setups in altering the angle of the reel seat. this allows the reel to "face" or point more toward the blank. in theory this will allow you to use a lower frame guide as a butt guide. i will be happy to discuss this at the show and show some of my experiments, some worked and many didn't. i hope together we may be able to tweak or come up with an even better system utilizing the guides and other available components we have now. i would love to see a size 10 or 8 with the height of a 20, but until then we have to find other ways to accomplish what we seek. that sure can be fun

From Bob McKamey - install seat and grips, stand rod straight up, flex to 90, mark placement of guide at maximum flex point on tip section, work in both direction and install guides with flex ties. String line, visually line up all to insure minimum angle at butt guide staying with normal tolerance of distance from front of spool. I wrapped all but the first guide on the first few to test cast. I found that the taller the frame the cloer to the spool the guide could be placed. We are presently limited to use of what is available. The main thing is line control using a smaller guide - it simply does not bellow out when using the smaller guides.

All are working quite well - TATSG, TCMKCT, REC & BYAG have all been used in 16s

REC, TATSG used in 12s

Building two now with TYSG 10J

I have noted the casting distance improvements Bob notes on braid on all of the above -

One more thing - casting distance is not the only issue involved - shaky head and drop shot sensitivity issues thrump all others - these builds are the ticket for those who desire the maximum sensitivity on any chosen blank. Like the man said earlier Put Em On The Scales Dewey!

Mating different size front and rear hoods with skeleton seats is one way to modify spool upsweep slightly. I am following your spinning exploits very closely. While going smaller than a size 5 may not be possible due to the leader diameters I am commonly using, smaller butt and transition guides to tame the line coils faster is definitely something I could work with!

One thing about the M frames is that they don't seem as sturdy, and also maybe the corrosion resistance of the frame materials used.

I’m intrigued about what Bob has to say about using the smaller, higher Batson “M” guides. I’ve retrofitted most of my rods with micros for the running guides and I’d like to try the smaller butt/transition guides. Doe’s anyone have any of the specs on the “M” guides? I.E. heights, materials, weights, etc. I’m wondering how their heights compare to the Fuji TATSG’s for a given ring size.
Bob, you mentioned Don Morton advocating the smaller guides, including the butt guide. Doe’s he still set up his rods so that THE CENTERLINE OF THE GUIDES ARE COAXIAL TO THE DIAMETER OF THE REEL ?....as opposed to the “normal” Concept Guide System of where the outside edge of the guide touches a straight line through the center of the spool.
One of the things that Don Morton pointed out to me several years ago was that the angle (upswing) of the reel relative to the blank was irrelevant since the spool would be only slightly elliptical and have little effect of the line spooling off the reel. Ignoring the angle allows the line to be brought closer to the blank more quickly. I.E. moving the choke guide closer to the reel.
In regards to the unavailability of micro tip-tops, wrapping a single foot micro has solved the problem for me. It takes some time to get a good-looking wrap, but it’s possible to do it where the tip of the blank doesn’t protrude past the ring, precluding the line from ever contacting the blank tip. The results not only complement the rest of the micro set-up, but also results in a lighter tip weight than a conventional tip-top. I have a picture of a micro wrapped tip, but have been unable to upload.

I happen to have an old Batson catalog, so here goes
M Guides:
Ring Size Height
16 42.75mm
12 32.08mm
10 25.75mm
8 22.35mm
7 17.75mm
6 15.00mm
5 12.38mm
4 10.00mm

VS
Ring Size Height
25 39.00mm
20 33.02mm
16 25.10mm
12 20.35mm
10 16.60mm
8 14.70mm
7 11.15mm
6 10.50mm

VS3
Ring Size Height
25 51.93mm
20 41.39mm
16 34.78mm
12 28.30mm
10 22.00mm
8 17.97mm
7 15.20mm
6 13.19mm

Hope this helps.

Joe

Thanks a bunch Joe. Same height at half the ring diameter, just at a quick glance. I remember Black Diamond Rods in Australia made use of the M guides extensively. You can get down to pretty small guides quite quickly.