M&M Volume 4: Spread ‘em!!!

Your mission, rod builders, if you choose to accept it, is to explain your process for setting up a rod using micro guides.
We begin the journey into the nuts and bolts of building with micro guides in this volume. We have all heard multitudes of questions and posts regarding spacing guides, especially on conventional builds. This includes using all one size guide, stripper size, line touching the blank, only making them work on spirals, etc. There is a world of different sizes and even a major difference in guide dimensions with the same sized guide between manufacturers (reference: [www.rodbuilding.org]). Even the feet are different lengths! So far, one point is holding true - micros are single foot, fly style guides (who knows - could double foot micros be in the future after micro tips?).

Don’t let the little guys beat you!

Have you:
· Challenged standard spacing wisdom?
· Built the same blank with larger guides and micro guides and compared?
· Compared weight differences even if you used an extra guide with a micro set up?
· Found spacing to “look” different and been questioned by friends/customers?
· Factored in the height of the reel for spacing the stripper on a casting rod (similar to a spinning rod)?
· Thought about why you are selecting the size micros that you are using?

The M&Ms are asking you to share your experiences related to these questions and include some other items that have impact in your discussion:

· Number of, brand, model, and size of guide and why you are using that set/order of guides
· Type of rod being used in the example – length, action, and power
· Casting or spinning rod
· Total number of guides
· Any deviation between spacing with micros vs. larger guides on the same rod
· How you “test” to make sure your spacing technique works
· Spiral (and type of spiral) or conventional wrap

This is also open for questions from those who have not yet tried building with micros and are seeking information on how to set up a casting or spinning rod with them. Let’s speed up some learning curves!

As always, specific information and recommendations are needed from custom builders and/or manufacturers. Any rod builder or manufacturer caught building micro rods or supporting this new process with guides or tiptop is encouraged to participate. This message will not self destruct.

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I began with spiral wrapping (Revolver Style and Simple)right off with micros because I had a lack of confidence in these tiny guides on top. I felt like I needed a ton of them. It was just that – feelings – preconceived notions I had to get out of my head so I could see other options. I have now converted to primarily micros on top because the anglers in my area need long casts. My standard build uses Batsons (6,4,3s). I’ve been very happy with the results as have my customers.

My method for spacing the guides is different. Bobby Feazel challenged me to get out of a box and do something different. I did. First thing I realized was that, to Rich Forhan’s point the other day, the first guide is the line guide on the reel. I also looked at the NCG directions in the library here and realized that the size of the reel is accounted for. Why hasn’t it been as obvious with casting reels? There’s a huge difference in a Shimano Curado (especially the Curado Es now) and an Abu 5600.

What I started doing is spacing my guides in REVERSE. The very first guide I place and space is the stripper. I work forward from there. Basically I am giving priority to the stripper. It allowed me to break down that mental wall to place the stripper up further than normal. Sometimes my stripper can be as far out as 30 – 31” from the center of the reel spool.

I also have found working in this direction, I tend to have more space between the tip and first guide. The bulk of the guides end up in main curve of the blank and then spread out on either end. Faster tips have more guides forward, etc. It’s been a tough sell to customers on occasion but I haven’t had a rod come back (yet) because the guides “don’t look right”.

I have found on some rods, primarily shorter casting set ups (6’6”) I do use one more micro guide than if I used say size 6s for runners. I have not found that to be the case on longer rods (7’6”+).
Here’s an example:
Rogue MB663 from tip in mm and guide size: 95(3), 182(3), 267(3), 359(3), 455(3), 551(3), 655(3), 785(4), 967(6).

The Stripper ended up being 28.25” from the center of the Chronarch MG the rod was built for. Switching over to a MB703, the spacing changed very little on the running guides but the stripper moved to 30” out and used the same number of guides. There isn’t a 7’6” version of this blank to compare what 6 more inches would do.

I do test the line both by fully loading and then casting the blank prior to wrapping and have found this technique to work for me. Very few times have I had to go back and make an adjustment.

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I do nothing differently. I use the smallest guides that will perform the required task and set them up based on straightest line path and best stress distribution. That's all.

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Alex;
Have you compared casting differences with the Micro’s on top verses a spiral wrap?
If so what have those differences been?

Although I am not fond of it, ocassionally I have to build a spinning rod and the customer usually knows all about my conventional rods which are built with all Fuji LSG 3.5's. So he asks; "Why don't you use all micros on spinning rods." At this time I don't have a good answer for that question.

Since I was not successful on my first micro spinning rod (only the running guides were micros), I am making this post seeking some help from you experts. What do you do?

Details are appreciated in advance.

Bobby

The way the line comes off a spinning reel requires that the guide system be different than that found on casting rods. Generally this means that you have to use higher, and possibly a little larger (sometimes the ring diameter is just to get the extra height) guides for the first few. The running guides should be as small as can be employed and still perform the required task. So nothing has really changed, except that we now have very, very, very small guides at our disposal. Previously we had to stop at #6s or #5s. Now we can keep going down even smaller, when it's possible.

............

Steve - did some testing. Very informal since I was hurrying before dark.

Same rod, reel, weight. Marked off intervals. Gave each about 10 casts and they were pretty consistently landing at the same distances.

Didn't have time to measure each individually but did walk out and throw down a marker. All casts on top were within 1 - 3 yards of each other in distance. Same with spiral. Overhand casts, tried to keep same motion for all casts best I could. Closest "on top" and spiral were four yards apart with the spiral being shorter. I was using a revolver style spiral.

One thing I noticed was a difference in trajectory. I really fought keeping the spiral out of the trees. The guides on top sailed right under them. Seemed to be more of an arc with the spiral. Made me wonder if wind could be playing a part.

Maybe it's not the set up that is the influence, but rather the other external factors.

I'll do a better test this weekend.

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Bobby - as Tom noted, with spinning set ups its a function of height because of the way the line feeds off the spool. perhaps, with a growing popularity in smaller guides, we'll see a higher frame guide with smaller rings. I'm not sure you could get away with sizes as small as 3 for your first guide on a spinning rod, but maybe somethign in a tall enough frame with a ring size between 6 and 10 would do the trick?

Johusa

If I read you right, you are saying that the distance from the blank is the important factor but to a lesser degree is he ring size.

Is this correct?

Thanks for the reply.

Bobby

Steve Yes I have:

At this point in time I am able to associate with the guy who said six weeks ago I could not spell engineer now I are one! The casting distance comparison of the micros on top and spiral will probably end up in a situation just like the comparison in casting distance between a conventional rod and a spiral.

I will not attempt to enter numbers - only experiences that fishermen have had that are using the rods -

At this point I truly believe the main value of the micros is the simple weight reduction that takes place - the blank simple becomes a better tool.

Casting rod:

To date I have built rods on six different blanks in four different configurations.

Blank types: Four pitching - Two moving bait rods

I have built these blanks in four configurations.

1. Conventional rod
2. Spiral wrap normal guide size
3. Micro spiral
4. Micro all on top

I have test casted each of the finished rods with a Revo Premier, Shimano MG 50 and Shimano Curado E7.

The job of the pitching rods is to move a lure up to 40 feet, land it softly, allow vertical lure drop, bite detection under slack line condition, hook set and lastly and most importantly fish recovery.

The micro spiral wrap with the line suspended under the blank on the guide rings appears to have all the attributes that the users desire.

The moving bait rod presents another challenge. One of the primary advantages is to be able to easily throw the Trap, DD22, Redfish Spoon and any other type of moving bait long distances. When a long overhead cast is made the rod ends up near horizontal at the end of the casting stroke - the lure may be outbound for up to three seconds. The line is riding in the top of the ring during this period of time.

The distance the lure travels is determined by the kinetic energy of the lure at the time of release. The total kinetic energy will either be consumed propelling the lure forward or it will be lost in the system. If you think back to the last Volume you will remember a post by Rich Forhan noting the size of the pawl guide on the reel - small huh! Energy is lost in the system using larger guides - and the losses are not related to frictional losses of any kind. If you take the time to have someone cast a rod while you visually observe the line behavior from the reel face to the first guide you will soon realize the nature of typical energy losses.

The all micro on top appears to be superior for long disance casting.

The point of all this is that there may be reasons for building rods in more than one set up style dependent on user preference.

I too am like Bobby - built only six spinners - all shaky head and drop shot - micros are a no brainer to drop weight. I have gone to a 12 and suspect others have used smaller butt guides - sure would like some feedback -

I am putting the finishing touches on a 6'6" MH Fast action St Croix, and the stress test put the first guide at almost 6 inches from the tip. The next 4 guides "wanted" to be within 3 or 4 inches of each other. It looked strange, but if the rod was for me, I would have left it that way. Since it is for someone else, I spaced the first 5 guides, at 3 inch intervals, starting from the tip. This required one "extra" guide, but with a size 4 guide, minimalist thread wrap and Permagloss finish, I wasn't too concerned with extra weight. My biggest issue is that (like everyone else) I was unable to purchase a sz 4 ring with a 6.5 tube for the tip.
I will be building a spinning rod this week, and plan to use sz 4 runners. Not sure about spacingor the other guides until I glue-up the seat and grips, and do some testing. I'll let you all know how it goes.

George - that is exactly what I was referencing about "dem guides look funny". I see it a lot on fast and XFast rods.

I often have a first guide pretty far away from the tip as well.

Did you notice any negative impact by changing the spacing? Was it a spiral wrap?

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Bill;
Is that using all one size guide or stepping down in size.

I have just set up an 8ft blank that I will be using for large crank baits. I will test it tomorrow with guides set up both ways and see how it goes.

The one thing I like about using the pull ties for testing is that you can spin them around on the blank and compare each style of guide set up with out having to remove them.

Alex;
Interesting info on trajectory differences, I will pay close attention to that.

Alex-
Probably looked no funnier than your Christmas Special-using red and white guides-Starting on top-around to the bottom-back to the top........The Candy Cane Spiral

That's your idea Chris. I claim no responsibility with that one and give you full credit. Tells us how that turns out. Maybe a 12/24 post?

Steve - I noticed because I started hitting the bottoms of the live oak limbs and once went over the phone line. Didn't do that with on tops. Could have been human error or even the wind may have picked up and carried it a little more. But I was using a 1 oz sinker as my casting plug.

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Alex, I saw the same thing on a crankbait rod with a simple spiral (6, 4, 3s). I didn't like the distance I was getting and I put too many casts up in the air. I just stripped the rod and I'm going all threes on top. Not a very good test since it's my first rod on that blank, a CB70MH.

Alex,
I noticed no difference in casting between the stress test spacing and the uniform spacing. It is a spiral wrap, rotating to the right, with a size 6 Batson Alps butt guide, offset so that the left side of the ring aligns at 0 degrees. Single foot fly sz 5 @ 90 , and the 180 and all other runners are size 4 SF flys.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2008 11:38PM by George Forster.

When building either a simple spiral or a revolver wrap, what is a good "starting" distance between the 0 guide and the first 180?


This is what I messed around with today:
7' SCIII MH Fast
6 (6.5)Tip
4BLAG 5 1/4", 9 3/4", 14 1/4", 19", 22 7/8", 27 3/4", 34 1/8", 40 5/8" (1st 180)
6BLANG 45 1/8" (off set), 50 1/4" (Butt)

Seeing as this is my first spiral, I am not sure that I have the set up optimized as of yet. I was not able to make hard cast as the reel seat was just lightly taped in place. It should be ready to cast hard tomorrow evening.

I did notice that the size 6 tip, does place more strain on the first size 4 guide. The first size 4 actually popped/ripped out of the tape while stressing the blank during the static test which set off a chain reaction that allowed all the guides to come loose.

Also noticed that with the old 17lb test line that was on the reel, casting distance was cut short and backlashes were increased. I changed out the line and it took care of the birds nest issue.

Eric

Eric;
If your stress test popped out some of your guides is has nothing to do with a larger tip, you may not be doing the test correctly. When testing the only real tension should be on the tip. You should be using two lines one tied to the tip then to something else so you can pull back on the blank to create the stress. Then another run through the guides with just enough weight to put a little tension on the line itself so you can see how it lies from guide to guide.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

I had already done theset up using two line method using a 1 oz weight on the mono and a heavier weight on the line hooked to the tip top. I was just looking at the line after I was finished and pulled on the mono to watch to see if there was any difference. It lasted about 5 seconds.

Eric