The unorganized group of M&M (Micro Maniacs) submits Volume 1 of Friday ____ for your evaluation and participation.

Steve Gardner started this with an article published in Rodmaker Magazine on Micro Guides.

Bobby Feazel succuessfully marketed the custom Micro Rods to tournament bass fishermen.

Several custom rodbuilders participated in submitting a follow up article in the last issue of Rodmaker Magazine.

Many rodbuilders who use this forum do not realize the impact that Rodmaker Magazine has on this craft. All custom builders who are investigating the use of the micro guide do not use this Forum. The number of "in the closet" custom builders who have micro guides in their possession would surprise many.

The ultimate goal of the M&Ms is to produce a more functional fishing rod targeting specific rods used for bass, walleye, striper, speckled trout and redfish.

The unorganized group of builders who are using this new concept of custom rodbuilding are urged to use this forum to advance the present state state of the art. Please post your comments on these threads. Everyone is in the learning stage and the slightest thing my be an eyeopener for many.

There was quite an important post made on the preview thread posted yesterday by Brad King -

"What is the reason behind the Micro Guides"

The M&Ms respectfully suggest that interested rodbuilders answer this question themselves.

Marketing of fishing rods has indicated that a lighter fishing rod that will meet all of the desired use requirements will be perceived as the better rod and will command a higher price.

1. Purchase a digital scale with grams - ounces as the unit of measure. $10

2. Select a completed rod that is used for power applications like flipping or pitching with 3/8 oz or above lure wt. Try to find one with a nice butt wrap and foregrip. Remove the reel.

3. Place your finger at the center of the reel seat and allow the tip to rest on the digital scale and measure the tip weight that is pulling down on the tip of the rod. Record.

4. Reinstall the reel and do the same measurement. Record.

5. Select the heaviest lure weight that will be used with this rod.

6. Add this total wt to the weight recorded on line 4.

7. Consider if you are making 2,000 presentations, in a day, with this combination and are moving the resultant of that weight a vertical distance of only 2 feet. Do you think you had better eat a bigger breakfast on tournament day or do something about the way the rod is built.

8. The M&Ms are working very hard to improve the situation with many new concepts that will effect rods of the future.

9. Welcome to the gaggle of M&Ms. We would encourgage all to share their findings!

10. ALL IN ! (*** For the time being anyway)

M&Ms

* Alex you are too observant - those candies had an SS on the back side!)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2008 09:39PM by Bill Stevens.

Great post Bill,

First order of business - get rid of the fancy buttwrap :-)

OK Bill - I give. I'll be building some micro Walleye rods next week for testing.

I did some looking, and noticed that Pac Bay offers their M style guides down to 4 mm size in a low M frame, and matching tops. Has anyone played with these on spinning rods?? I do know the M style guides make great butt guides, and allow me to use smaller, lighter ring sizes and still get good line flow.

Rich - I think your ice is in the works by the looks of the weather!

Have a great day all!

Marc

Bill-
When making this tip weight measurement-are you supprting the rod in as close to level position as possible?

I am doing the best I can to get a good approximation of the weight - trying to make all measurements as accurate as possible. It will not take you long to realize what a dramatic difference your build style can make when you compare to a bare blank. I have seen some set ups that the multiple of weight difference is 10 - when numbers like this appear for a bass fisherman the task of the builder then becomes Do What You Gotta Do!

Bill,
The whole point of using the micro guides, as you know, is that they weigh less which results in a higher resonant frequency, lower damping factor, lower mass etc. all of which improves the performance of the rod. But take a look at the light weight Alps guides from Batson. I have been using them lately and prefer them to any guide on the market. I have not actually compared their weight to the micro guides but I will bet that they weigh less than all but the smallest micro guides and do not have the compromises associated with the smaller guides.

Emory, would you please explain the compromises with the smaller guides. I'm not yet sold on micros.
Thanks,
Jeff

The builders working the M&M issues have the many of the weight numbers on the available guides and sizes for use with these concepts. The proper use of guides is being carefully worked and many of the compromises surmised, by some, may not have direct application to bass rods such as excessive icing. If you would care to list the specific compromises you note maybe you can make your information available available to all.

Here are the weights for some of the Micros presently being utilized for your consideration and comparison to those you are using.

10ea - Fuji LSG 3.5's - 0.42 grams

10ea - Fuji TLSG 3.5's - 0.41 grams

Bill Stevens

Don't forget a side benefit to micros (for bass fishermen anyway) - Rod lockers do not eat them as easy.

Increased performance is great and desired. Adding to the longevity of an investment helps seal the deal.

Of course this was already covered in RodMaker...

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Marc;
I have not used the AM. Tackle M guides, but have built many rods using the Batson Match guides which are similar and can tell you, if you use the Micro’s for your running guides there is a substantial weight reduction.

Emory; I use and love the Alps guides, and can tell you the weight savings pales in comparison to the Batson Micro guides.

I too would like to know the compromises I would have to make to use the Micro guides?

Anybody remember what Hank Parker said to Ray Scott at a Bass Master Classic a few years back?

"PUT'EM ON THE SCALE DUEY"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2008 07:20PM by Bobby Feazel.

Jeff,
Everything that we as rod builders do involves compromises or trade offs. There is no free lunch, there is always a price to pay, and we as rod builders are doing ourselves and our customers a disservice if we do not recognize and understand those compromises. I do not have any problem with the micro guides but I think that we should recognize and understand the trade off that we are making. I do not want to get into a @#$%& contest with anyone over this but anyone who believes that there is not a price to pay for using these smaller guides is just not using his head. Here are just a couple of examples of the trade offs using the micro guides.
If we use the micro guides on conventionally wrapped rods and we believe that under load the line should not touch the blank then we are going to have to use more of the micro guides than say the Alps guides. If we use more guides we will obviously increase the weight defeating what was the point to begin with, minumizing the weight.
If we use the micro guides with their smaller ring size, because most blanks are not straight, it can become very difficultif not impossible to allign the guides so as to provide a straight unobstructed path for the line. If the line path is not straight and unobstructed and the line contacts the guides then there is going to be more friction between the line and the guides with a corresponding energy loss.
The micro guides just by virtue of the fact that they are smaller are more difficult to position on the blank and to wrap. This difficulty results in the wrapping of guides taking more time. If you build rods as a hobby you probably do not really care about this but if you are building rods as a business you had better care about it.
These are three examples and there are more but there are also probably just as many examples of where the micro guides offer an advantage.

Alex,
You make a good point and agree, there are trade offs that come down on the side of the micro guides as well as those that do not.

Steve,
There is not as you put it a "substantial" weight reduction using micro guides versus the Alps or "pales in comparison' to using the micro guides as opposed to using the light weight Alps guides, especially when you use more of the micro guides because of their small size. "Substantial" and "pales by comparison" is just silly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2008 08:31PM by Tom Kirkman.

Emory I am quite proud to say the the people who are working with the micro guide systems are all using not only their heads but the collective heads of a group of very good fisherman/rodbuilders as well. We are glad to pay the price to validate the effectiveness of the rods we are building. All of us are working to build a better mouse trap. To get to that end a lot of conventional thought is being revisited. All of the items you note have been carefully considered and we have not allowed conventional wisdom to blocked our efforts to build a better rod. We are using this forum to report on the results of the builds.

Please note the rods we are talking about are bass, wallyeye, smallmouth, speckled trout and redfish - this is not a swipe of the sword or pen covering all rods for all uses.

The issue of line touching the blank is being carefully revisited by builders of specific rods whose performance is better with the guides on top. Conventional thought does not deal with when does line touching affect the performance of the blank. Many bass fisherman utilize blanks for lure presentation without loading the blank at all. If the lure is on its outward path is the blank loaded - no - can the line touch - no - this is not a simple issue and you would be quite surprised at the relatively small number of micro guides on top of a seven foot bass rod. I urge you to build one and test cast to see for yourself or order a rod from a builder and test it to your satisfaction. There are several builders involved on this thread that will gladly sell you a micro rod and allow you the right to return it if you are not completely satisfied. If you do not want to build one please contact me via email and will make arrangement to get one shipped to you immediately for your evaluation.

One of the important issues we are dealing with is establishing the real base requirements for a blank used for a specific technique. NONE of what is being done establishes a set of rules for all rods - not only are the rods task specific gut they may even be fisherman and lure specific as well.

Builders of rods using micro guides have developed placement and wrapping procedures that permit placement of guides within acceptably allignmant tolerance. I will not use the word perfect but is is very very close. The issue of friction of line and guide ring surfaces has been duly noted. One of the things that was noticed early on was the wave form that takes place that distorts any views or calulations of frictional losses. Take a look at this picture of a spinning rod line path : [www.rodbuilding.org] . A conventional casting rod will exhibit a not as drastic degree of line displacement but it is highly significanl when observed.

Build time: You comment on extended built time is very appropriate but incorrect - The key to the entire build is add absolutely nothing that is not necessary and weigh everything. I absolutely love to build micro rods. No thread work - no name - no decal - no nothing extra - the wrapping time for a set of micros is less than 10 minutes on a manual V stand - set up and alignment about 20 min - Perma Gloss Finish way quick -

Don't take no time to do this! [www.rodbuilding.org]

I hope this reply to your post will appear without any jumbled letters implying that there is any argument in my reply to your post.

I urge you to set up a micro rod and check it out for your self. At present my targets for a build are totally based on weight reduction added to a blank that will not impare the desired behavoir of the rod built.

Bill Stevens

Emory,
I'm not sure which Alps guides your referring to, but I have a full set of the Alps Zirconium for an 8 foot crankbait rod and they weigh more than 3 times the weight of the micros, 3 grams v. .9 grams. For reference, the Alps barely weigh more than my AmTac titaniums (9 single 6s weigh 1.9 grams v. 1.6 grams). The Alps are 9 single footed size 6, a double 8 and a top. The micros are 7 size 3.5, a 4, a 5, a double footed 6 and a top. I've built the same rod with micros for myself and will build one with "standard" sizes for a customer. All my micros so far have been spiraled and I've used the same number of guides. As you can see from the weight totals, it will take a whole bunch of extra guides to offset the weight savings. For comparison, the feet on the 3.5 are about half the length of the 6, so the amount of thread I use use on micros is probably just a little more than half what I use on a size 6.

To address a few more of your points, if you have a crooked blank, the micros are a huge pain. I wrapped an old Shikari for myself and it wasn't very straight. I built on the straightest axis and still had to shift some guides towards the top so that they aren't centered on the rod, but provide a straight line path. It doesn't look good, but it works very well. For certain, building using the micros takes some time to master, but after a few rods, they don't take me any longer than standard guides.

In summary, I usually find your post very well thought out, but I think you missed the boat big time on this one. You seem to have formed your opinion without any practical experience.

Cheers,
Robert



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2008 12:18AM by Robert Russell.

Bill,
I was not trying to shoot anyone down I was simply attempting to make the point that the new Alps guides will be as light or in some cases possibly even lighter than the micro guides without some of the compromises associated with the micro guides and that is regardless of the type of fishing that the rod is intended for. That seems obvious to me and I do not have to build a rod to prove it to myself. However, if you want to test two rods, one with micro guides and one with Alps guides, to see which actually in fact has the best resonant frequency, damping factor etc. I can do that for you.

Emory there is one highly humerous thing about all this that you problably will never experience. Every single one of the tournament guys that picks one of these things up for the first time makes a very similar statement to yours to the effect

"It is OBVIOUS to me that his rod will not work"

Why is that says I -

"There is no way that 65 pound braid will go through those little guides"

Chunk it says I -

There is a finite sequence of things that will now occur.

It will go about two times further than he expected sometimes to the knot on the spool -

The next thing you will hear is an exletive with the two first letters of H_ _ _ S _ _ _!

Let him take it on a trip and when he returns the first thing you will hear is music to YOUR ears -

That is the most sensitive fishing rod I have ever held in my hands!

I do not need validation of the resonate frequency to know I have produced a better fishing rod.

As I said earlier Do What You Gotta Do!

I've seen a few of these threads and it has indeed piqued my curiosity, but one question still lingers on the micros and I haven't been able to find the answer here...or elsewhere! Have any of your actually put in a decent season with this idea or similar on typical bass waters? Slop, scum, farmdust, algea and whatever else creates the slimes and residue build-ups on any of my guides looks like it may be wicked to clean off those micros. Guides that can accept a Q-tip or rag corner are quick and easy, micros look like they may have a problem there.

Not knockin' the concept, it's just that there are certain realities to year round fishing that may be an unpleasant surprise in some waters. I don't know if the build-up actually has any effect on friction on normal set-ups, but it can get pretty thick during some periods in sloppy water. Does the smaller circumference of the micros allow this buildup to impede line travel as it doesn't look to me as if it would have be much to start getting in the way. That's a mighty small hole on some of these guides, a bit of droop or sludge overhang looks like it might get caught by the line. Some new braids leave a residue as well for a few weeks, though they are getting better with that color thing.

Any input by users appreciated, I'm going to hold back a bit as the midwest isn't the cleanest surface to break for bass during alot of the year.

Joseph, I will ask you to hold off for the best answer to this question which should come later in the day from Bobby Feazel and Steve Gardner - they are both fishing this beautiful morning and I am on hold waiting for the kickoff of a very important football game.

Most of the micro rods I build are used in South Louisiana and the larger reservoirs in Louisiana and Texas. I do have several in service at Amistad, Falcon and the Mexican Border Lakes with no reported difficulties. The largest seller I have is for flipping and pitching rods use to punch grass - there are no problems and to be perfectly honest some of the rods are really set up for braid use to start with. I am building a lot of the micro rods for bass fishermen but I only USE them in clean saltwater where the potential problem you note is not applicable.

Personal Note For MJ:

There are many differerences between you and I:

I am old and you are young - I am fat and you are thin - I am bald and you have hair - You are a Yankee and I am a Bubba - You are a thread head and I am a peddler of nothing rods

We have many of the same tendencies and enjoy sitting at many tables -

The main similarities are size of suspended spherical appurtenanes and mouth - both know the real action is at the Golden Banana!

Our enjoyment is really being involved in the game directly and holding good cards -

Neither of us is afraid to call or even raise from time to time -

One thing though never let anyone figure out what your next move will be !

No matter what the game there will always be a Phil Helmuth - most of them are for real and have highly valuable skills or they would never chance coming to the table.

It takes both to gather a large enough audience to pay for the valuable exposure time to the public.

Steve:

I think it would now be appropriate if you would be so kind as to provide the active link to the extensive testing procedure adopted by the M&M QA/QC Department.

That should put a very appropriate footnote to this M&M thread.

Geaux Tigers!

Joseph

I'll chime in here.

I am retired living on the banks of Toledo Bend here in East Texas and bass fish this lake and Lake Sam Rayburn about 200 days a year. These two lakes certainly have great potential to cause the problems you inquire about.

I have 13 conventional casting rods in my boat all with Fuji LSG 3.5's. I have used these rods for the past 20 months and they were built for all types of techniques. I mostly use braid.

Since it had never occured to me that the build-up could be a problem; before I started typing, I went to my boat this morning and looked at each rod very carefully to look for any signs of the build-up that you query. I found that most of my quides were indeed dirty on the outside but every single ring was as bright as new. Let me add here, that I have never cleaned any one of these guides because I'm just not a clean nut. Don't believe it, just ask my wife.

So, Joseph, my conclusion is that it would take some very extraordinary circumstances over a long period of time to cause the problems you ask about.

I am glad you asked the question.

Bobby Feazel

[www.shockwaverods.com]

Conventional wisdom will not open the box.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2008 10:15AM by Bobby Feazel.

Joseph,

I have put my micro rods to the test this season. I spent a lot more time on the river than normal this year, and I do have silt buildup on the guide frames, and a little on the inside of some rings, but not in the areas where the line contacts the ring most. I have not noticed the buildup to cause noticeable problems on the water. If I can get some good pics, I'll post them, but don't hold your breath, as the camera and I don't always get along, especially when it comes to close-up pics.

One other note, the cottonwoods were shedding when I was breaking in one of my rods, and the fuzz buildup is a bit more of a problem than with standard sized guides. But for a couple weeks a year is far from a deal breaker.

The other nuance (user error) I've come across is using old mono. As mono ages, it stops shedding water as well, and since the micros sit close to the blank, old mono will wet itself to the blank, and cause problems when pitching. This is more of a user issue, as I'm lazy when it comes to changing my line. It may also contribute to some of the extra silt buildup as well.

One solution to cleaning the micros, though I haven't tried it yet, may be a piece old T-shirt over a toothpick or nail.

Joe