I just finished a 4wt 4 pc. Sage Z-Axis fly rod using the REC Recoil RSF titanium single foot guides. Casts wonderfully BUT while shooting the fly line, I hear a distinct fairly high pitched ringing sound as the line passes through the guides. Sometimes I can hear it even with stripping in line. I changed fly lines and the "effect" nearly disappeared, but later returned with the different fly line. I could be a temperature effect. I need to experiment more with that. The resonance effect transmits down the blank and seems to emanate from the grip (foam/carbon sleeve) but then when I cast with just the top three sections the ringing continues. I think that the the flexible thin wire guides act kinda like a violin string when the bow is drawn across them.

Anyone else experienced this with the REC guides? If it continues I will probably strip them off and replace them with the Fuji Ti/SiC guides.

Wayne

It does kinda the same on flouro but it doesn't bother me.

The guides, combined with the surface design of the particular line, and using the rod blank as a sounding board, are the source of your problem. But it's not anything that is going to cause harm. At least not to anything other than your sanity.

I'd fish it a bit and see if you get used to it. If not, then replace the guides.

...............

Wayne,
Don't replace guides with Ti SiC.
Make sure your line is cleaned and dressed properly. The REC guides will make that noise with a dirty OR dry line. Once the line is clean, dressed and wet the noise will lessen or cease entirely.
Herb

ZipCast to the left quiets mine down. Really helps with line management and distance also.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2008 05:18PM by Spencer Phipps.

The single foot wire guides are simply not stiff enough ( up / down the rod direction ) not to vibrate as the line passes over them.

Many moons ago there was a series of guides by Aetna that were in the same wire form and they "sang" exactly the same. They had disappeared from the market long before the recoil single foot guides came out. They were lovely and light but annoyed fishers with the "singing".

Snake guides are stiffer and resist the vibration from the friction of the line, because they are bound top & bottom & the line passes over them at an angle.

With a 4 wt Flyrod ; replacing wire frame guides with a Full set of Titanium frame /SiC guides will tend to kill the crispness of the action. Titanium frame guides are very light but still a lot heavier than a wireframe flyguide.
Most of the "singing" will come from the Recoil single foot guides in the middle of the blank where the load on them is greatest.

What I do is use Recoil single foot guides on the first 4 or so near the tip and Ti/SiC single foot ( TLSG )for the ones in the middle & TLNSG guides for the stripper and sometimes the one next to it.

The above mix of guides blend together visually reasonably well and keeps weight out of the rod tip section where the blank can't cope with too much weight. The blank can cope with Ti / SiC in the middle of the rod & at the butt quite well & you will hardly notice any difference in the action.
( At least I don't on a 6 wt ............... I also have a 9 wt with the same setup )

The recoil guides will still 'sing' a bit at the tip but it is nowhere as noticeable, as the load on the guides near the tip is much lower so friction is lower.

Flyline treatments work OK , but single foot recoil guides tend to strip it off rather quickly ( a lot quicker than snake guides ) & I find constantly retreating the flyline after nearly every session a pain.
DenisB

Glad to hear that several of you have had the same problem. Not sure yet which approach to follow. I'll cleaning the line again and have some ZipCast on hand.

Wayne

Denis;
Would not this statement
"Fly line treatments work OK , but single foot recoil guides tend to strip it off rather quickly "

Indicate that the recoil guides are putting undo wear on your line a well?
I mean if it wears off the treatment then it must be wearing down the fly line finish as well.

What are the lightest guides next to the REC recoil single foot. Fuji Ti/SiC single foot guides? Light snakes?

Wayne

I received the below email form a certain Cajun who’s name I won’t mention but happens to be friends with a particular alligator, on the positive aspects of Recoil guides and there ability to aid in catching fish.
Disclaimer; I cannot personally verify this info because I don’t use recoils

“I cannot understand why other rodbuilders have not taken advantage of the
REC guide systems full capabilities. All "Coonass Rodbuilding Impresarrios"
instruct their customers proper technique for the retrieve so as to allow
the controlled vibrations to reverberate a very effective Fish Call! When
this call is coupled with one of those, "as you say", tough as nails
Castaway Blanks the combination will put you on the stand and allow you to
collect a very large check! If anyone asks you what is the rod called
simply say "Coonass Screaming MeMe"!”

Steve
Every spoken or written word is interpreted by the person receiving it differently., unfortunately............... that's why legal documents take 10 pages to say that 2 + 2 = 4, by taking 9 1/2 pages to spell out the context & intent of the statement that 2 + 2 = 4.
I'm guilty in some cases of not getting the context of a comment clearly stated, as much as the next person.
But
you have read something into my comment far beyond the context in which it was made.
The context was flyline treatments, not bonded flyline coatings. To take a comment about flyline treatments and apply it to bonded flyline coatings is a step too far.

If I was of the view that single foot recoil guides were stripping the bonded flyline coating off, there simply would not be a single one of those guides on my flyrods.................... and I clearly indicate that 2 of my flyrods do have single foot recoil guides on them and the context in which I use them quite happily.
Hope that clarifies the situation of my comment.
Regards
DenisB

. Denis;
I may have worded it wrong, but I was Asking, if the problem would be the same?
Knowing virtually nothing about fly lines it seemed to me that the affects would be similar.
I was not intending to make a statement, just trying to learn something.

The reason I was trying to understand is covered in another post I made earlier today on recoils. Were a Client has asked me to strip them off of two Bass rods, because they are “destroying his line”. (Again his words not mine)

Steve
Ah yes there are two edges to most swords.
I did not see your context in your orginal post................ now understand your query.

The answer is yes its possible

Ti- Ni alloy is an incredible alloy which has high memory and springiness, very tricky to manufacture into shapes..............that's why there are few manufacturers of the products & basically all design & manufacture is "inhouse" by the company making the alloy for clients who want to sell a particular product as their proprietary item.
but it's still a metal and wears ...........typically a lot faster than most topline ceramics like SiC.
Nylon & similar wear metal.............. as anyone who machines nylon will tell out how it takes the edge off tools.
But most wear in fishing guides comes from the crap our lines pick up while we are fishing.
Even dried salt when reels are not flushed after use in salt water , or the salt has dried long before flushing takes place ( salt crystals are slow to go back into solution ).
Braid is fabulous stuff but it holds a lot more dirt, dust, salt crystals etc than monofilament lines.

wire frame guides are deliberately thin diameter wire to keep the weight down for the intended duty.
with a bit of wear , you first get a flat on the nice round shape of the wire and then a groove.
once that happens ( even at the flat stage ) you are getting towards a knife edge
any surface imperfections in the line & the thin wire can dig in.
Flyline coatings are not smooth, nor is "fireline" or braid & monofilament isn't as smooth as you think either ( but its pretty smooth for all intents ).
So you can see where bad things can start to happen.
But there is something else going on at the same time with a guide like a recoil.
because the Ti-Ni alloy ( or even a steel wire ) is springy in that form it will take the line of least resistance
which usually means it will bounce away from the imperfection in the line running through it rather than dig in ..................... this starts the vibration & the "singing " you get.
The wear you get is proportional to the friction where the rubbing is taking place
friction is proportional to the force applied between the two materials
The fishing rod is delivering that force
Less at the tip and progressively more in the middle & increasing towards the butt.
you can feel and hear the "singing" winding in with a loaded rod.
In the cast , you start with a loaded rod and high static friction before the finger / thumb lets the line move,
as soon as it moves you get dynamic friction & vibration and once its started ,just light contact between line & guide keeps it going.
I would expect that inspection of the guides on your client's rod with a magnifying glass would show
significant "flats' or grooves if his line is being damaged significantly by the guides & I would expect the wear to be greatest in the middle of the rod where rod deflection is greatest.

One thing you can do with braids to "lubricate" them is coat them with"RainEx" windscreen treatment.................. it has a dimethylpolysiloxane in it for slipperyness.........
Run a bit more than cast length out in the paddock.................soak a small piece of rag with the liquid and slowly wipe it along the length a couple of times & allow to dry .
I found the genuine "RainEx" best , both for windscreen ( car & boat ) and on the braid.
I have used this myself without noticable effect on the braid or its manufactured coating on spinning rods to reduce friction and "stickiness" with wet braid on the spool during casting and increase "feel" when using soft plastics or tiny 1/16 - 1/8 oz lures where the wet stickiness of thin 2 - 4lb braid on the spool is most noticeable.
Regards
DenisB

Steve
Whoops
Forgot something in my last post.

Would love to hear what you see when you inspect your clients guides under a magnifying glass.

DenisB

Hey Denis, braid floats. Does the Rain X treatment change this in any way?

Denis;
Thanks again for your input. The person whose rods I'm redoing does not use braid.
According to him the problem was evident for the very first.

I will inspect the guides under a magnifier to see if I can tell any signs of wear in them.

Ted
No it doesn't.
it tends to make raw ( open weave) braid float a bit higher as it tends to stop the water soaking into the braid fibres, ( ie in between the individual fibres ).
the difference on thermofused braids is negligible.................. just makes them more slippery & shed water better.
DenisB