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Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Jeff Bott (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: November 22, 2007 06:21PM

I plan to build a heavy stand up tuna rod. I've built lots of salmon rods over the years but never a big heavy rod. So I have a few questions for anyone who's in the know.

The blank will be either a Seeker 6463XXXH or a Calstar of the same rating.

1) I was thinking of using Hypalon front and rear grips, Aftco reel seat and gimbal. Sound reasonable?

2) Looking at Aftco HD rollers and would figure for a 6'3" pole I would probably need 6 maybe 7. Sound about right?

3) What about thread? Under wrap? Double wrap? What size (I would think D)

Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Plan to order from Angler's Workshop later this week and get started.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: November 22, 2007 07:45PM

I don't think any serious rod builder would attempt to start this from the get go without having read, several times, A Complete Guide to UNDERSTANDING & Building Stand Up Rods which appeared in Rodmaker Volume No 5 Issue 6. Try to get one from back issues listed on Rodmaker link to left. If Tom is out I have a few left that I keep for my customers to read.

Gon Fishn

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Richard Beeson (---.hawaii.res.rr.com)
Date: November 22, 2007 08:10PM

My 130 class rod I used a gator blank 60" used 5 aftco rollers with tip. underwraped with A, then double wraped using D and added trim to the ends.
With that tuna rig I would get a #51 stripper, 3 #41s & 2 #31s plus tip and do all the wraps with A. I also wraped a spiral roller on a tuna trolling rig using the american rollers using A thread under & double over on this one. It is a good stand up rod also. I use EVA forgrip and all my poles have unibutts. Hypalon will work fine in the pole holders.
Hope this helps.
Dick

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Anonymous User (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: November 22, 2007 08:39PM

uni-butt or Slick butt , no foam on butt will not be able to get it out of rodholder under pressure

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Ernie Johnson (---.maine.res.rr.com)
Date: November 22, 2007 09:21PM

A few questions

Are you chunking or trolling? (this will help determine Hypolon/Eva versus Unibutt/slick butt)

Are you on a Party boat and going to use the rail? If so, you may want to look at the composite foregrip that is meant for rail rods.. I am assuming you are building a rail rod based on your blank.

Based on a 63" rod, 5 or 6 HD guides are okay, but need to do a static. Most likely it will be 5 if it a rail rod and you want to have a long foregrip as that blank is meant for that. The All American rollers are also nice and they can handle wind ons.

What size reel, line and drag are you plan on using?

I use A on both under and overwraps.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: November 22, 2007 09:45PM

A little different take on the Seeker Blank you noted. Spiral, Fuji SIC Guides, All American Roller Top, Shortened Slick Butt for Harness Match, Hypalon Foregrip, Slotted Gimble - Set up for yellowfin in 150 # range - for stand up use. This set up reduces rod torque and allows female anglers to whip a large fish without assistance.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: November 22, 2007 10:43PM

BIll, there's no torque when you use a HArness. THE Harness prevents teh rod from torquing.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Anonymous User (Moderator)
Date: November 23, 2007 09:25AM

Depends on how you look at it - the torque or attempt to twist is there, the harness simply keeps it from turning the rod. On lighter rods the butt won't twist, but the tip can.

The bottom line is that if you build such a rod with the guides on top, you will need a gimbal and gimbal nock/harness. If you build the rod spiral fashion you can generally skip the gimbal and nock as they won't be needed.

One thing you would still want to consider, is how the rods will be trolled. What type rod holder and what's required to do that with your particular rod type.

The article in the Volume 5 #6 RodMaker is the definitive article on building rods for any type of stand-up fishing. If a better article, or one even half as good has yet been written, I'd sure like to see it. This one covers about everything you'd ever need to know in terms of stand-up rods. We drew from several experts in the field to cover about any variable you can think of in this type of fishing, including the various harness types and what handles/lengths match them.

....................

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Doug Moore (---.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)
Date: November 23, 2007 09:31AM

True, the butt end won’t torque, but I’ve seen the tip almost do a 180 on a conventionally wrap rod, while hooked up on large sharks. That’s why I now spiral wrap all my off shore equipment.

Regards......Doug@
TCRds

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: November 23, 2007 09:39AM

Sorry Mr. V used the wrong word - should have been belt instead of harnass - we do not lock them in with tie to reel for a safety factor when fishing from small boats, 32 ft, in water conditions that can make things kinda hairy for the inexperienced people fighting the large pelagics and trying to stand up at the same time. About five years ago while I was strapped in to a real nice harnass system I got literally thrown to the deck because I could react fast enough when the boat got caught in a swale and went sideways - never again will I hook up the ties on a rod I am holding. It is kinda like you trying to walk and chew gum at the same time while passing the Rolex salesmen at the ferry landing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2007 11:00AM by Bill Stevens.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Billy Vivona (160.254.20.---)
Date: November 23, 2007 10:18AM

FWIW, even thought the rod tip WILL torque, the fishermen will not fel it when usign a harness. Even with a belt & a gimbal, the rod will feel more stable to the fishermen than with just a spiral wrapped rod, as the rod will still rock back and forth each time you turn the handle.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Anonymous User (Moderator)
Date: November 23, 2007 10:20AM

On very short, stout, stand-up type rods (used with a fighting harness or belt), while the torque is there, the tip generally won't twist due to the stout nature of the rods involved. On longer, lighter style rods, the tip can and often does twist around a bit.

...............

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Ken Preston (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: November 23, 2007 10:26AM

If this is truely a heavy duty rod I would go with a Calstar, All American (spiral) roller guides; spiral wrap the rod and use a Stuart Tuff-butt . You'll likely have to reduce the butt diameter of the blank to fit the aluminium tube of the Tuff butt however it will not lessen the overall capacity of the rod - the aluminum tube will more than compensate. I would also install a long triangular hypalon fore grip - 13 - 14" . If you do hook a large fish you'll appreciate being able to extend your arm & use your back rather than fore arm & biceps for leverage. I'd also opt for a stick with an overall length of less than 6'.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: November 23, 2007 11:28AM

Billy think about it for a minute -

With a big yellow fin the drag on the reels we use is set at 32 - 36 # and most of the time the fish is exerting enough force on the bottom guides to stabilize the rod. The force exerted either up or down due to your hand pressure on the reel crank at the moment arm distance is less than the force of downward stability due to guides on bottom dead center. The thing you note has been a problem on 16/18 wt fly rods using huge reels with drags set at much lower levels - crank pressure can destabilize under those conditions in rough water.

I still maintain anyone building a stand up should read the Rodmaker article - each area of concern is dealt with in a much more detailed method that these short internet posts.

Geaux Tigers.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Jeff Bott (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: November 23, 2007 11:36AM

Lot's of great replies above. The rod is being built for stand up fishing on SD long range boats. I don't plan to troll with the rod. I could see where the hypalon grip would be hard to release from holder under pressure.

I was looking at the 6 foot to 6 and a half foot rods from Calstar or Seeker due to that being the recommendation from the long range skippers. They say the longer rod helps to keep the line out away from the hull when the tuna are in their spiral at the end. The rod will be used to fish from the rail more than from a harness. They suggested the Calstar 6465XXXH and 765H or Seeker 6463XXXH. I have never used either blank as my current heavy rod is Loomis.

I plan to use an Avet 50 with 130lb spectra on the pole, drag is 35 lbs at strike and then up to 50 max.

I've seen some of the spiral wrapped rods and the concept sounds great. Funny thing is the last long range trip I went on two guys had the spirals and they left them in the rod holder's and used their normal wrapped Calstars. That led me to believe there's not the confidence in this concept of rod wrapping.

I'm ordering the back issue of Rodmaker noted above today to read. Any further comments appreciated as I want to get my order placed so the ball is at least rolling.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Ernie Johnson (---.maine.res.rr.com)
Date: November 23, 2007 11:58AM

Billy

You can still feel the torque even when strapped in. I really only feel it when it near the boat and it moves left or right and down. That is why the rod pops out of the gimbal alot. You can really see the tip torque. (I have seen it on shorter rods). If the fish is away from the boat the effect is nil.

When I fished the acid wrapped last year, it was really nice when the fish/shark took off around the boat as they always do. I did not feel the torque. Of course my tip snapped.lol..

We don't fish heavy drags due the heavy seas we usually experience in the Gulf of Maine. We set them around 20-25lbs at strike. We have fished higher, but the seas were calmer. I personally do not like drags over 28lbs. Al ot of times we have to fish one hand on the Tower so we don't go over. But the big reason we don't use heavy drags, we don't like green sharks at the boat..

Now if we fish for Giants and out of the rodholder, we crank it up...Don't want the meat to burn...lol..

All in my opinion of course..

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Billy Vivona (160.254.20.---)
Date: November 23, 2007 11:59AM

Jeff - the "4" series of Calstar's is designed specifically for Rail Riding. There are a few posts in the archives here on the 7465 Calstars, which you may be interested in.

[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Jeff Bott (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: November 23, 2007 05:15PM

Billy, I read the posts on the Calstars, thanks. That will probably be the brand I go with. The debate now is 6465XXH or 765H. Difference glass vs composite.

I'm also getting the impression that this type of rod usually receives an under wrap and two over wraps. And I would think probably 3 to 4 coats of finish.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Ken Preston (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: November 23, 2007 08:16PM

Jeff
Either of the Calstars are fine blanks. Most of the Calstars I've built in that class have been on the E-Glass blanks and were meant to be used on 22-40 foot boats with small numbers of anglers and used as standup (not rail) rods. The "why" reasoning I use is that the E-glass blanks are a bit more foregiving when fish get a look at the boat and make that last lunge. The E-glass rods bend a little more (absorb the initial shock of the run). The Graf Fiter blanks I feel are more suited to pulling gouper / rock cod away from wrecks better - for the opposite reason - they react fast and apply the power quicker. I'm certain that Bill Stevens or one of the other Gulf fishermen can can provide their reasoning when fishing the towers / oil rigs in the gulf .
In my opinion the second overwrap is there more for aesthetics - a nice look and what a customer expects to see. I don't see the functional "need" for the second overwrap - but do for good epoxy work for wear & tear. Thin "soaking" coat on the underwrap then at least two on the overwrap. - size C or D for the overwrap should be plenty stong enough to do the job.

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Re: Heavy tuna rod building
Posted by: Ted Metzger (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 25, 2007 01:06PM

Sir, Can't believe I finally figured out how to get registered here...LOL, Anyhow I just completed a trolling/stand-up tuna stick rated for 50-120lb test, using a eglass calstar 6455 xxh blank, aftco super heavy duty roller guides (51,41,41 31, 31,31, tip) , aftco reel seatw/gimbal. The fore grip is 16" Eva. For the butt grip (10") I use 2 layers of cork tape, with a layer of friction tape over that, and finnished with a heavy shrink tube made especially for rod building. The idea behind this type of butt grip, is that it's much tougher than the straight Eva/Hypolon grip that all manufacturers typically use(calstar,seeker, etc.), when using the stand-up style of fishing. It will last much longer when using rod holders/outriggers, or when just tied to the rail whish is typical on long range trips. Guide placement is up to you. I've been fishing this set-up for tuna up to 200lbs, and have never expeienced the the torque problems you are referring to. I've seen the acid rod spiral wraps on lighter rods, but never on something as heavy as a trolling rod with roller guides.......seems to me there would be line wear issues with these type of guides.

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