Well, finally broke down and tried the Supreme tonight on a spiral wrap test rod I finished last night.

Good points - very clear, decent pot life, few bubbles after mixing, most bubbles appeared to disappear after application.

Bad points - too thin, stinks really bad.

For you folks that are used to using Flex Coat, DO NOT TRY THIS STUFF ON A ROD BEFORE YOU PLAY WITH IT AWHILE on junk rods!

It is so thin that it will get away from you before you know it. You have to pile it on to get one coat coverage on D thread without CP. That leads to what I think is going to be a not quite level finish when I wake up in the morning. Can't heat it to level it like you can Flex Coat. If tried, it would drip all over the place.

I really thought that the Supreme would be thicker and similar to the viscosity of Flex Coat. Will play with it a while longer before passing final judgement.

Another LS Supreme story. I too have had some lying about and have not had the guts to try it. Maybe someday I will on some test rods. There has been a lot of negative comments on this stuff since it came out and morphed into it's current formulation. I think that it really is just something new and needs experimentation to know its properties and appreciate them. Those that have mastered its use love it. Are there others who tried and gave up on it?

I too am preparing to use it for the first time. With its thin nature, are you better trying several thin coats rather than trying to pile it on?

I've been using the stuff since it came out and really like it. I've yet to try the recommended spatula application and use a top quality brush. I find that several thin coats work best for me. I apply a very thin first coat (over colour preserver)- for this coat I put a goodly amount on the wraps and allow it to flow out even and then go back and remove much of the polymer once I finish the section. Once this coat is cured I put on another slightly heavier coat. In my experience I have found that it levels very well even on the longish feather inlays I use. For long wraps etc. I apply the polymer along the axis of the blank.

Andy

I am getting ready to take the plunge into LS. I have used Crystal Coat for years and have no complaints other than the viscosity. Where a higher build is necessary I have had to use up to 7-8 coats. I can not image LS being thinner. In answer to Dan E. post: Several thin coats are always better than one sloppy heavy coat. The thinner coats will level much easier, plus you can control the flow of the finish better with less finish on the blank. (make sense?)

This type of discussion is really interesting to me. I certanly do not have the years of experience that a lot of you folks have and you might say I "cut my teeth" on Duragloss products.

Tried Flex Coats years ago. Too darn thick, won't level for me. I just don't know how to use it properly. But I doubt I will take the time to learn because I have always obtained a good finish with Duragloss, LS 2000 or LS Supreme.

I really liked LS 2000, yes, that's right...that really thin stuff.

So if you are like me and used to the Duragloss products and like the end product you can achieve, do not use Flex Coat until you experiment a little on some test wraps. I guess that's just the opposite of what Mike said.

The differences in opinions on finishes is a very interesting topic.

I think Tom Kirklman and others have said there are lots of good finishes out there that will produce excellent results. You just have to learn their characteristics.

Let's see -- how many times has this been cussed and discussed here and in other forums? But for those of you who have missed those discussions, let's have a review.

1) Use several thin coats of LS SUpreme. As Andy mentioned, apply a full wet coat, then remove all excess. Allow to dry, then repeat as many times as required.

2) Do NOT heat LS Supreme. Not only because it will run off, but because it will not tolerate heat.

3) Apply lengthwise to long wraps for best leveling.

4) Read the instructions that came with it and follow them.

5) Don't use a hammer to saw wood or a saw to pound nails. If you MUST have one-coat coverage, LS Supreme is NOT the product for you, as it is NOT high-build.

I personally have not found LS Supreme to have much odor at all. My wife is very sensitive to odors (much more so than I am) and she hasn't mentioned anything since I've been using LS Supreme. Of course, 25 years of working with various epoxy products in several different hobbies may have given me a different sense of what "stinks" than you, Mike.

Sorry to sound condescending, but come on, guys! Try using the product as it was intended and labeled, not in the manner you are used to using another product. And don't bash it after not following the instructions -- you did read the instructions, didn't you?

I'm a novice rod builder myself, but I have tried Flex-Coat High Build, Flex Coat Lite, and LS Supreme. I've found LS Supreme to be excellent for guide wraps, but I still like FlexCoat High Build for large areas like inscription areas, although you MUST watch out for bubbles with the FlexCoat. I've never had one bubble when using thin coats of LS Supreme. As I said, I'm no expert on the subject. I'm merely relating my experiences and giving you my 2¢ worth on the subject. Jim

All these products work well if once you learn how best to use them. Both Flex Coat and LS Supreme will give excellent results, but each one requires a slightly different finishing technique in order to get the best results.

I have used Flex Coat for a decade or more and like it very much. It is an excellent, easy to use finish. After using the LS Supreme on a few rods I find it just as easy to use and it offers some things that the Flex Coat does not. You just have to get used to it.

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Jim, I was only giving my first impression using the Supreme. That's all, just making an observation. I didn't miss the discussions and even went back through the archives here and on the Guild to refresh my memory.

I also issued a warning those that have used FlexCoat for the past 15 years as I have to be careful using it the first time. This is just plain common courtesy. It was thinner than I thought it would be, that's all, no more. I don't like using multiple coats but if I elect to continue using the Supreme I will have to get used to double effort to acheive the same result.

I did not bash the product, in fact, my good points exceeded the bad points. If the product needed bashing, you can bet that I would have.

And compared to FlexCoat, it does stink a lot worse to my nose and my nose is the one that counts. I have four drying racks set up just opposite my wrapping lathe. I normally can put FlexCoat on and keep working. Last night I had to quit wrapping until the stuff quit off-gassing. That is not necessarily a bad thing but it is something to consider if you are evaluating a product. Again, if I decide to keep using Supreme, I will modify my working process.

For future reference, be advised that I know how to read instructions, I now how to test and evaluate products, and since I used to teach shop I know the difference between a hammer and a saw and how to use them.

Kirkman is correct in that both of the finishes have good and bad points. Nuff said!

For me, the thin of the viscosity of the LS Supreme is a plus. I don't like the thick Flex Coat, never have. Two coats of the LS seems to give me the depth I want and looks great. The long pot life makes it easy for me to take my time and not have to rush. I really, really like the stuff.

Jim's advice is helpful to anybody who is getting ready to use it for the first time. Thanks Jim.

Sorry if I rained on your parade, Mike. I've seen you post on this board and the guild board many times. That's why I was surprised to see you relate how you did not follow the instructions (by using one heavy coat) and then seemed to be concerned about not getting a level finish. Your post gave the impression that LS Supreme would definitely give problems to new users. As I mentioned in my first post, I'm new at the rod building game myself, as I've only built 6 rods. My first experience with Supreme was very positive, probably because I followed the instructions and the cautions I'd seen on the boards. If you'd mentioned in your initial post that you were experimenting by not following the instructions, you could have eliminated any confusion for the newbie who has not read the past posts on LS Supreme.

I'm sorry your nose is offended by the odor of LS Supreme. I haven't found that to be a problem in my use, although I never have multiple rods drying simultaneously as you do.

Jim

If you would like to take this off the board and discuss it by email I would be happy to.

I'm afraid that I am going to have to jump in here. I usually try and stay out of these kinds of issues, as obviously I am quite prejudiced. But Mike Bolt either needs to change his brand of deoderant or his brand of sippin whiskey. I won't comment on his preferences for thick or thin as that is a personal preference and to each his own. I will however, comment on his accusation that it stinks, and that he was bothered by the outgassing. Please be advised one and all that I can absolutely guarantee that there is absolutely no -- repeat NO outgassing of any sort from LS Supreme or any of the LS products. An understanding of the technology involved in the curing process of this polymer shows one that outgassing is impossible. I cure many multiple rod sections and samples daily, the curing rods are a few feet from my wrapping station and I can guarantee both from a personal comfort situation and a known technology that outgassing is not a problem because it is non-existent.

As far as the stink goes, when I first began giving out samples of this new technology, people tend to want to unscrew the lid from the hardener and take a sniff. Without any exceptions everyone has always remarked on how oderless the hardener is compared with what they are used to. It is perfectly obvious to anyone with a normal sniffer that when they sniff the hardener of LS Supreme, and compare it with the normal amine hardener from any of the many brands on the market, the LS Supreme is almost odorless, you never get that foul ammonia odor common with the other hardeners. The epoxies are all the same as far as odor is concerned. They are for all practical purposes odorless. I invite all of you out there to give em both a sniff and report on this board your findings.

The hardener is designed to be progressive in its reaction. The mixed materiel is low viscosity, and should be unused until the desired viscosity is reached. If you like the viscosity of flexcoat, let the LS sit for about 10 minutes and it will thicken to the desired viscosity. It is useful up to about 35 minutes after mixing, and gets progressively thicker. If you let it sit for about 15 minutes, you will still have a longer pot life than flexcoat or any other brand out there that I am aware of. The way that I do one coat applications on butt windings is to apply a flood coat within 5 minutes after mixing. Then let it turn for about 10 to 15 minutes, and then apply more resin while turning. The mixture is now thick enough to be a one coat application, yet you got the penetration of the thin mixture when it was first applied.

LS Supreme may be a lot of things but stinky it ain't, and outgass it don't.

Ralph O'Quinn
U-40 products
formulator of LS Supreme

I want to repost a portion of Ralph's post because it is so important and addresses, better than I ever have, the advantage of the Supreme's long pot life and what you can do with it. If you're getting ready to use this stuff, please heed the following advice.

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"The hardener is designed to be progressive in its reaction. The mixed materiel is low viscosity, and should be unused until the desired viscosity is reached. If you like the viscosity of flexcoat, let the LS sit for about 10 minutes and it will thicken to the desired viscosity. It is useful up to about 35 minutes after mixing, and gets progressively thicker. If you let it sit for about 15 minutes, you will still have a longer pot life than flexcoat or any other brand out there that I am aware of. The way that I do one coat applications on butt windings is to apply a flood coat within 5 minutes after mixing. Then let it turn for about 10 to 15 minutes, and then apply more resin while turning. The mixture is now thick enough to be a one coat application, yet you got the penetration of the thin mixture when it was first applied."

Ralph O'Quinn

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Mike,

I think we have both said much more than we needed to. Jim.

I've been a fan of LS Supreme since introduced to it at the Custom Rodbuilders Guild Conclave. It is very forgiving and versatile (really hard to screw-up). There has never been an odor problem - - my wife used to complain about finish odors but since I've used this product she doesn't seem to notice.
While getting things ready to apply finish I put the bottle of resin under my arm to warm it up for about ten minutes. This seems to be the proper temperature for optimum mixing.
I really appreciate the way that the finish can be applied in multiple coats, thick or thin, and out of one pot of mixture!

I find it amazing. After reading all these posts here and on the Rod Guild Board over the last year or so I came to the conclusion that LS Supreme had too many problems with low viscosity for me to make a switch. Yet the solution was there all along and so very simple - wait till it thickens up a bit.
Ralph, I know you have explained this product in every which way, but this advice- just wait - is the most enlightening and valuable to date. It answers all the low visc problems. Now to try that spatula method.